To ask if you are not a Christian, what non Christian values you live by?

[BlossomBlanket]

Just that really!

And you would be wrong.

You keep accusing me of this. I don't. This thread started out as being about Christianity, but in several posts I have made it perfectly clear that I disapprove of the excesses of all organised religion, not just Christianity. One post in that vein was very recent, so I must assume you are not RTFT. I aim brickbats happily at all of them and I can only conclude that you just don't want to see that.

Look at my post of 9.09 today. The last paragraph should be very clear.

@QuaintShaker Your posts aren't relevant to the people you are responding to.

I don't know who I am responding to because I have no way of knowing how many invisible - (don't like the word "lurker") posters are on this thread

Well, if it's outing then at least that suggests you're not describing a typical church upbringing, which is something. Sorry you went through all that.

You're a very dishonest person and I shan't waste any more time on you.

Easily resolved by using the 'Quote' function. You certainly don't appear to find it difficult to address your 'well but what about Islam' nonsense directly at me.

What is a "typical" church upbringing though? Is it not evident from this thread that even within the same religion and denomination things differ? So how can anyone be "typical"?

But thank you. It has lead to a complex relationship with religion but given how my mind works anyway I think that would be the case regardless.

Can we also all acknowledge that this post, coming from a place of complete ignorance as to the relationship between a PP and their abusive grandfather, was deeply unpleasant?

@QuaintShaker "In my case, I expressed that I found it hard to understand why the Son of God did not denounce slavery.".

First, the Bible tells us that Jesus said and did many things that are not recorded in it (John 20:30; 21:25), so we can’t confidently assert that Jesus never said anything about slavery.
Second, Jesus told a crowd in Nazareth that the prophet Isaiah’s promise of an anointed one who would be “sent to proclaim release to the captives” was fulfilled in him (Luke 4:18). This implies that part of Jesus’ mission was to free people from whatever held them captive—be it spiritual captivity, like sin or demonic possession; or material captivity, such as unjust taxation (Luke 19:1-10; 20:19-26); or oppressive, man-made religious traditions (Matt. 23:1-4, Mark 7:1-23).
It’s reasonable then to believe that Jesus thought of slavery as a similar kind of oppression that had no place in the kingdom of God. However, some critics say Jesus’ use of slaves as characters in his parables (see Matthew 25:14-30) meant he accepted slavery. But Jesus did not condone everything found in his parables. These stories used familiar circumstances in order to teach people less-familiar spiritual truths.
For example, Jesus’ description of the prodigal son being paid so poorly that he nearly starved to death does not mean that Jesus condoned such poor working conditions (see Luke 15:14-17). It was simply a fact of life to which his listeners could relate.
In fact, Jesus’ parables teach people to mercifully forgive debts (see Matthew 18:23-35) and to pay laborers their worth (see Luke 10:7), which are ideas that strike at the heart of slavery and other forms of economic exploitation.

Thanks!

And also, from someone claiming to be Christian.

Good Christian values coming out of this one.

Yep.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged - unless its a nasty snap judgement from a place of ignorance, in which case, go right ahead..."

Yes, we absolutely can.
Doubling down even after it has been made clear that abusive behaviour was a pattern with this man makes it even worse.

All it shows is that the man needs compassion, understanding and forgiveness which are Christian attributes.

This doesn’t mean that you have to be in direct contact with them, especially if abuse is ongoing or if it is presenting a danger to immediate family members, such as children, for whom you are responsible.
But neither should you cut yourself off from your family. If nothing else, they deserve your prayers for their conversion.
If it becomes necessary, they also should be able to depend on you for assistance—for instance, should they become seriously ill.

So he deserves my compassion and forgiveness, but you immediately said I wasn't a nice person because I could see how he was badly behaved "in the name of his church"?

Compassion only goes one way I see.

Oh, and he called me the reason his daughter was going to hell, simply for being conceived but I should look after him if he's unwell?

You are just further proving to me that "Christian values" are usually used as a way of controlling family.

@IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos but you immediately said I wasn't a nice person because I could see how he was badly behaved "in the name of his church"?

I never said that at all, and I really don't know where that came from ? ?

I said you didn't sound like a very nice person because you had no compassion for his situation.

The second commandment Our Lord gave was to "Love our neighbour as ourselves"
That means we love them (family) as part of God's creation the same as we are and treat them with respect.

It doesn't mean that we have to like them, spend time with them, have them round for a meal etc etc.but hopefully we can have some sympathy for them if they are in a difficult situation.

If it becomes necessary, they also should be able to depend on you for assistance—for instance, should they become seriously ill.

No, they really shouldn't. You may think so because you are a Christian, but there are reasons why many of us are not - and being asked to pander to our abusers is one of those.

I felt a certain amount of sympathy for my abusive alcoholic late husband even after he had been made to leave the marital home after threatening to kill me. He was very clearly miserable, and his addiction did not help.

But if he had not died before the divorce came through, I would absolutely not have been there to care for him had he become seriously ill. He forfeited that right with his behaviour towards me; moreover, taking that on would have further traumatised both me and my DC.

Recovering from abuse is hard enough without the unreasonable demands of faith piled on top.

@IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos Oh, and he called me the reason his daughter was going to hell, simply for being conceived but I should look after him if he's unwell?

Then you should feel sorry for him because he's had his brains addled by some fundamentalist cult.

You are just further proving to me that "Christian values" are usually used as a way of controlling family.

Nothing I am hearing here sounds "Christian" to me at all.

Probably going to church, learning prayers and bits of the Bible, confession etc if Catholic and tending towards being more socially conservative, but also hopefully being concerned about social justice, the poor and the sick.

That would be the norm for a mainstream church upbringing in this country, although of course there are differences between denominations, and you do get some outliers as well as normal human faults and family dysfunction.

I suppose it's a bit like you could talk about a 'typical' experience of primary schooling, although there are differences between them, and you might get a few rogue or bad apples , maybe some free schools that don't follow the national curriculum - which would then be non-typical.

Anyway, they sound awful so you have my sympathy.

@pointythings Recovering from abuse is hard enough without the unreasonable demands of faith piled on top.

I believe I said in a previous post that if there was a danger from abuse then one should distance themself from the abuser, especially if children were involved.

See my post at 15.32

I felt sorry for him, because he was clearly not in his right mind. But I felt more sorry for my mother who had to bear the brunt of his abuse. And my grandmother who lived with him and he was her primary source of care in her last months. And, to be honest, myself, for the completely irrational anger directed at me for existing.

Not a single bit of that means I should have cared for him when he fell unwell. But I was part of it, because my mum actually did do it, despite him being the reason she was kicked out of the church she'd grown up in and the abuse that came with him. Because that's what she'd been taught.

My parents, however, taught me that family was important but that I should never be walked over.

You don't sound remotely "Christian" either. Accusing me of "not sounding very nice" because I said my grandfather was vile and used his faith as a reason why. Suggesting a "good person" would just forgive and be there when their abuser needs it. If that's Christian, count me out.

No I'm not.

One of the most fundamental Christian beliefs is that of the Holy and Undivided Trinity (Father, Son & Holy Spirit)

JW's don't believe Our Lord is part of the Trinity.

Life after death is also a fundamental Christian belief. JWs don't believe the soul lives after death.

They reject almost every core belief of the Bible regarding the person of God, the person of Jesus Christ, the resurrection, and the means by which people can be redeemed.

They believe only 144,000 people will be saved (based on a misinterpretation of Revelation ch.7). This has caused consternation for the several million members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world today.!

They reject the Christian teaching that Jesus Christ is eternally God. Instead, they believe that Jesus is a created being and prior to being on earth Jesus was the archangel, Michael.

Therefore, they are not Christian.

In that same post you followed up with:

But neither should you cut yourself off from your family. If nothing else, they deserve your prayers for their conversion.
If it becomes necessary, they also should be able to depend on you for assistance—for instance, should they become seriously ill.

Stop contradicting yourself.

You would be wrong because its not the church I'm talking about.

Again, you are posting non-sequitors.

Pointythings was talking about recovering from abuse, not what to do in the case of ongoing abuse.

We have a PP whose grandfather was abusive to his wife, daughter and grandchild, based on his faith and his notions of what his church would think.

You dared to explain this man's abuse of his wife as being out of grief, and described his thoughts and feelings - despite not ever having known him - in some detail.

When the PP said that, had you known their grandfather, you'd know the account you had invented was not an accurate representation of the man they knew. You responded by saying the poster didn't sound like a very nice person.

I'd encourage you to re-read the interaction and consider if you owe an apology...

@QuaintShaker We have a PP whose grandfather was abusive to his wife, daughter and grandchild, based on his faith and his notions of what his church would think.

So are you now the self-appointed advocate for the PP?