To ask if you are not a Christian, what non Christian values you live by?

[BlossomBlanket]

Just that really!

@QuaintShaker "You can't help but wonder how much misery could have been averted, over many centuries, had Jesus denounced the practice of slavery."

It is ironic that the Church is falsely accused of either supporting slavery or failing to condemn it, when the wholesale enslavement of Christians by Muslims (estimated at one million people), especially the Ottoman Turks from the sixteenth to the eighteen century, is all but ignored.

It is disingenuous to equate the immoral behavior of individual Christians with official Church teaching. The fact that some Christians owned slaves or participated in the slave trade is not an indictment of the Church, but rather an illustration that individuals will sometimes ignore the clear teachings of the Church.

I think it’s absurd to believe in an imaginary god with no evidence of his existence. Organised religion is just a means of trying to control people that unless you worship me, I’ll scare you with the threat of going to hell. It’s all nonsense - heaven and hell don’t exist. Many of the Bible stories are farcical and why believe in god which doesn’t do any good but is cruel?

I don't believe in nothing, I believe in lots of things all supported by facts and evidence. What IS absurd is believing in something without evidence as we cannot know. You must believe in a lot of things if that is your general rule of life as it is impossible to get evidence for something that does NOT exist.

If you think the whole thing is a load of old cobblers why do you keep posting about it?

Why does it bother you so much what other people think/believe?

I can think of some belief systems I consider quite bizarre but I'm not on MN criticising them.

In the UK, freedom of religion or belief is a fundamental human right, protected by the European Convention on Human Rights and the Human Rights Act 1998. This right encompasses the freedom to hold or change one's religion or belief, as well as the freedom to manifest it in worship, teaching, practice, and observance.

When the bible gives clear instructions about keeping slaves, who you can enslave, for how long, how to extend that, that you can beat them as much as you like as long as they don't die until the next day... Even Jesus told slaves to obey their owners. I think that may have led Christian to believing it was ok and even sanctioned by god and the church to own slaves.

Yes, the Bible includes instructions regarding slavery, primarily within the Old Testament, particularly in Exodus 21, and in the New Testament, in the New Testament, notably in Ephesians 6. These instructions address how slaves, particularly Hebrew slaves, should be treated, with some details on their service duration and freedom.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Exodus 21:
This chapter outlines specific rules for Hebrew slaves, including the length of their service (6 years) and how they are to be freed in the seventh year. It also includes provisions for setting free slaves if their masters cause them harm, such as blindness or loss of a tooth.

New Testament:
While the New Testament doesn't explicitly condemn slavery, it does emphasize that slaves and masters are both equal in the sight of God and are expected to treat each other with respect.

Other Provisions:
The Bible also mentions other forms of servitude, like selling daughters into service, with different rules applying to their liberation compared to male slaves.

Deuteronomic Code:
The Deuteronomic Code prohibits Israelites from handing over fugitive slaves to their masters or oppressing them, and instructs that fugitives should be allowed to reside where they wish.

The reason I mentioned the Catholic Church in particular is precisely because it did (through Papal declarations) explicity support slavery - e.g., I am talking about the Church and what it taught, not what individual Catholics did.

Presumably, the Church would never have taken that position if Jesus had condemned slavery, which makes me (as a non-believer) wonder we he, in all is benevolence, didn't condemn it. In other historical contexts it's easy to understand someone as simply a product of their time (even ahead-of-the-curve for their time) but it's harder for me to accept that from a God, whether or not limited by a human form.

The fact that Muslims similarly enslaved people doesn't make me any more or less inclined to believe in Jesus.

@QuaintShaker "The fact that Muslims similarly enslaved people doesn't make me any more or less inclined to believe in Jesus."

I didn't suggest it would/wouldn't - it is a statement of fact !

Everyone's contradictory beliefs are supported by facts and evidence though. "Facts and evidence" are just ways of enforcing the truth regimes of the powerful. We live in postmodern chaos now, and "facts and evidence" cannot be trusted.

Are you Donald Trump??

Facts and evidence are very solid, real things. Facts are quite simply a thing that is known to be real or true. Saying they cannot be trusted is insanity. What you can't trust is people who manipulate or tamper with evidence.

To answer you previous question, people who don't believe in God don't believe in "nothing". They just don't believe in a magical being no one can see and no one can provide any facts or evidence for. They believe in the things the can see, touch, smell.

There was no criminal justice system as we have it today in Biblical times.If a slave committed a crime, it was the duty and responsibility of the master alone to administer justice to keep good order in society. Ex 21:20-21 banned punishments from being brutal.

Interaction with slaves should be one of kindness and compassion. This can be seen, for example, in the story of Hagar and Ishmael in Gn 21:8–21. Additionally, Paul writes in Philemon, slaves were to be viewed as beloved brothers ... as members of the family.
Jesus Himself commands us to do unto others as we would have them do unto us (Mat 7:12) and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves (Mark 12:31, Luke 10:27). Jesus did not exclude slaves or anyone from these commands.

Well as long as they were members of the family, it's absolutely alright they were enslaved then, right?

Don’t be a dick.
Dont be that guy.
This too shall pass

I find that tends to cover pretty much everything

@MaySea "Even Jesus told slaves to obey their owners "

I don't believe he did. Where is that statement?

Why shouldn’t I comment - you are. Your points are no more relevant than mine. Everyone is entitled to state their own opinions.

That's true, I just find your comments illogical. If you think it's all cobblers why bother to talk about it?

IMO you seem to find the idea of anyone having a religious faith threatening in some way, hence your continued criticism.

Please describe how you expect the atheist view to be evidenced?

Nothing threatening to me about others having a religious faith - will never understand why but that’s life.
Nothing illogical about being an atheist - my life is good and I can’t see how it could be better by following a religion.

Ephesians 6 1Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

If you know how to evaluate evidence and understand the difference between a reliable source and an unreliable one, you can discern the truth.

Making the owning of another person ok, and allowing that slave to be beaten to death by that owner also ok (sounds pretty brutal to me!) does not sound like the sort of kindness and compassion I would like to be subject to. The kind compassionate thing to do would be to let them go but then, what would I know? I'm not the ultimate 'moral' being apparently!

I find it amazing that you put sexual immorality and killing in the same sentence, as if they carry the same weight, when we know full well that there is nothing immoral about physical love between two consenting adults, whatever sex they may be, as long as they are both free to engage in it, i.e.not cheating. The whole Biblical definition of sexual immorality is ridiculous in the modern world, because we can now work out via DNA testing who is whose parent/relative and avoid dangerous levels of consanguinity that way.

Everything else is just controlling.

I thought you knew the bible? Why do I need to provide the verses? You must know that everything I wrote is correct? You still haven't said whether you believe that beating a slave to death is wrong, yes or no? You still haven't said that owning someone as property to pass on to your children is wrong, yes or no? Simple questions that can save a single word answer.

Exodus 20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

It clearly states that the slave is property and can be killed as he)she is his "money"

What about children disrespecting their parents, do you think your DC should be killed for that?

Exodus 17. And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Tricking a Hebrew slave into being a slave forever. Give him a wife, but when the time comes for release the wife has to stay a slave and the only way they can be together is for the slave to permanently surrender his freedom?
Exodus 4-6

If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
If you have "given" him a wife and she bears children, then you get to keep the wife and kids.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
You don't need evidence? What kind of position is that? I don't know what evidence would convince me, but if god is real then he would know and be able to provide it. If you don't need evidence, then do you believe in the Roman or Norse gods as well? If not, why not?

Atheists do not believe in nothing. Tthat is a strawman argument.

And indeed, we cannot know. We atheists cannot know that there is no god. equally, you cannot know that there is. It is all belief, and neither belief is any more valid than the other.

Surely it’s equally illogical to say that just because someone thinks something is cobblers, they shouldn’t talk about it?