To shriek from the rooftops that there is No Such Thing as “preferred pronouns”?

[Ddakji]

That’s it.

They don’t exist - any more than preferred adjectives, adverbs or nouns exist.

Even people who don’t like them still seem to think they exist.

Language is a shared, collective endeavour that belongs to all. It’s not a pick’n’mix for individuals to choose and change at will. For words not to be garbage they have clear definitions - in this case she for females, he for males, they (singular) for sex unknown.

Saying my preferred pronouns are she/her, even if that doesn’t fly in the face of reality, is no different to saying my preferred species is human, my preferred adjectives are sporty and lush.

It’s nonsense. Nothing to do with being kind or they don’t affect me, or I don’t mind if others do but I won’t. It’s nonsense.

Let’s make 2025 the year we kick this nonsense into touch.

That's one of the most refreshing things I've ever read on Mumsnet amidst posters banging on about "the gender wars"

I wouldn’t use them because they require me to perform cognitive gymnastics that I think are pretty abusive. They require me to deny the evidence if my own eyes, and they require me to deny the words to describe that reality. She, woman, girl all refer to sex - not gender, not identity.

It’s not kind or respectful in the least to impose that kind of headfuck on others. Though as you think words can change their meaning on a whim, perhaps you mean something different with those words.

The fact that you think it's abusive to ask people to use preferred pronouns is just ridiculous and over the top.

None of this has any bearing on the fact you don't think preferred pronouns exist which is just silly.

But where do you draw the lines with that position? Will you insist on gendered language where it's not appropriate - for example when formally addressing a doctor, a member of the Church, a professor, etc? What about when you are uncertain of someone's gender and it cannot be inferred from the information you have available? Are you more comfortable with them providing coded assistance in the form of pronouns, or with guessing and potentially misgendering and offending someone? Not even necessarily a trans or "gender non-conforming" person, but maybe someone from another country who has a name you are not familiar with and are not able to code?

You don’t have to, compelled speech shouldn’t happen. I agree with the sentiment in the image too.

There are languages where third person pronouns are not gendered. Their speakers often struggle with “he / she” in the early stages of learning English.

I wouldn’t use them because they require me to perform cognitive gymnastics that I think are pretty abusive

Oh, don’t be ridiculous …..abusive!

So if a trans woman would like to be referred to as she/her, you wouldn’t respect that because you think it would be abusive to you…..that’s just stupid

I'm as GC as the next but yabu to say preferred pronouns don’t exist. Clearly they exist because someone has made them a thing. You can choose not to acknowledge them. You can choose not to use them but you cannot claim someone’s preference for something is non existent.

If someone started referring to you as he/him or it you’d probably get annoyed and point out it was she/her (or whatever you choose) and that is your preferred pronoun and not the one the other person hypothetically forced upon you.

are the ding/dong pronoun types ridiculous yes, do they exist- only if someone has created them

All those words to justify hating trans people.

Which is all your 'argument' amounts to.

They really don't require cognitive gymnastics, it's not that hard. It's not a headfuck. Words do not have an innate meaning, words are given meaning in the context they are used. That's linguistics. Language morfs and changes over time and takes on new and different meaning.

Also, that image is vile and designed to provoke hate. Why? Sex has been defined in law. The GC have already 'won'. I see no reason why I can't modify my language a bit to make someone else feel seen and included. You obviously do. I think that says more about you than me.

Agreed.

If "Language is a shared, collective endeavour that belongs to us all" then why is YOUR view on pronouns the definitive one?

At some point in English use of different pronouns changed from separate ones for second person singular and plural/general vs respectful to just having "you/your" for everything rather than thee/thy etc, whereas the difference is still retained in other languages

You could scream about "they" only being "supposed" to be used for multiple people but someone speaking French or Welsh would think it equally illogical to not know how many people are being addressed when you refer to "you", or to address a lecture in the same way you would your mate.

This

“Words do not have an innate meaning”. They have definitions. We learn those definitions, as you say, through context (though not always - we’re not Humpty Dumpty: “words mean what I want them to mean”). Being required to refer to someone you can see is male using words that you have always known to refer to females is, in my opinion, abusive. It is even more abusive when you factor in those with learning difficulties or disabilities and those who don’t have English as a first language.

I find your interpretation of that cartoon, showing a child armed with nothing more than a catapult being told to be kind by armed males screaming abuse, interesting It’s a pretty accurate reflection of the last 10 years, and a clear picture that there is no “both sides”.

So much shrieking, I don't know how you ever get anything done @Ddakji

My primary-school children would be fine to grasp the concept of using someone's requested pronouns so I'm not sure why it requires such cognitive gymnastics from you

You’re happy that your young children are easily groomed into denying reality? Well - you do you.

Transmen haven't been shouting at children. Even the extreme trans lobby haven't been shouting at children. Stop being aggressive and goady.

And of course there's "both sides". I am GC and think sex is immutable. I'm glad that it has been confirmed in law. I think it is incredibly important for women to be able to access spaces and services free of men.

Likewise, I think we need to look at creating services and spaces transmen and transwomen can access. We need to create a society that is tolerant and understanding of difference. We need to be respectful and kind to people we share space with. We need to talk to people in a way that makes them feel heard, safe and understood.

Neither of those positions contradict one another. It really isn't that hard.

Groomed?!?! What on earth are you talking about?!

Shriek from the rooftops? On ye go then…

You're not wrong but I think that ship has sailed, it's so embedded in some people's psyche.

Ignore the best you can and don't engage.

Such a shame that there are still plenty of women who would be happy with a female victim of rape being forced to use the “preferred pronouns” of her rapist in court, and deny that that is abusive.

(And if you deny “preferred pronouns” in this or any other context, you know that they’re a nonsense).

But good to see that, as always, there’s a silent majority not supporting this nonsense, poll currently at 63% in agreement.

Over and out. Enjoy your evening, everyone.

Good lord, not what anyone is saying, seriously, stop twisting everything to suit your own narrative. Over and out here too. You keep shrieking from the rooftops, OP.

This is hilarious.

Talk about sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting LA LA LA!

But James wouldn't insist to Brenda that he was now to be called Brenda. Binmen wouldn't demand we call them nurses, and white people cannot decide they prefer to be called black. I think the frustration arises less from people's desire to be referred to in a certain way, and more from the fact that their preferred way may be one that is already in use by a different group. That and the pressure to participate on people who feel no need to state their pronouns, because they can be reasonably certain people would choose accurately if left to decide for themselves, and wouldn't feel it was that big a deal if someone did get it wrong.

Why can’t we just use their name. It would save stop all this confusion.
why does it have to be a pronoun.