To shriek from the rooftops that there is No Such Thing as “preferred pronouns”?

[Ddakji]

That’s it.

They don’t exist - any more than preferred adjectives, adverbs or nouns exist.

Even people who don’t like them still seem to think they exist.

Language is a shared, collective endeavour that belongs to all. It’s not a pick’n’mix for individuals to choose and change at will. For words not to be garbage they have clear definitions - in this case she for females, he for males, they (singular) for sex unknown.

Saying my preferred pronouns are she/her, even if that doesn’t fly in the face of reality, is no different to saying my preferred species is human, my preferred adjectives are sporty and lush.

It’s nonsense. Nothing to do with being kind or they don’t affect me, or I don’t mind if others do but I won’t. It’s nonsense.

Let’s make 2025 the year we kick this nonsense into touch.

These posts are getting more tedious and boring each day. Please take your thinly-veiled hate to the FWB board.

exactly! It is a manipulative hash tag and phrase! ‘Don’t say anything that will upset someone because otherwise you aren’t kind’ even if you feel that you in the right.

so when someone goes I feel like I’m lying or I feel uncomfortable using someone’s preferred pronouns because I believe pronouns relate to biological sex, they have it thrown at them they aren’t kind and inclusive. It’s quite a cruel saying really- anyone who doesn’t toe the line is mean and unkind and I think for most women they would find that allegation upsetting. So they are forced to be quiet or risk social rejection.

it isn’t used in any other context except to manipulate women.

Well I still think it's a principle of allowing myself not to be abused again. A matter of pride. I will simply use their name or say them/their . Then they will be happy and I will be happy.

I'm just making sure both of us are treated respectfully and using they/them will do that.

I don't want to be someone's emotional support prop.

What if someone was Catholic and had a form of medicated and diagnosed OCD which meant they were afraid that lying would cause them to end up in hell? I used to have that. I am not Catholic but even so imagine if I had been from a religion like Christianity ? What if using pro nouns went against their conscience ?

if a TW refused to accept my compromise in using "they/them" instead of she/him are they not being unreasonable ???

i don't care about what people call themselves. I just wish they would leave me out of it. I have a trans friend who keeps saying about how one week he wants to transition and the next week he doesn't . One week he says he is gay, next week he isnt. He is nearly 40. I just tell him I don't care what he identified as and if he has surgery or not,.let's talk about something else! Because it's not my problem. It doesn't affect me . It's his choice to make. He can do what he wants . He is always respectful and doesn't demand anything . He knows I don't care.

I am sure a compromise can be reached so both people are happy. I use they/their for that reason. It keeps both people happy. No one can say they're misgendered or choose to feel offended over it.

I don't see how one group has to be out over the other. Both people's mental wellbeing and happiness is equally essential. I could never say my need for emotional equilibrium is less or more important than anyone elses. We are all responsible for our health and what we choose to be offended by.

I recently read an article revealing that use of preferred pronouns in communications were much, much older than I thought, and had nothing to do with chosen gender identity. It started because recipients could not tell the sex of the person with whom they were communicating, especially those with "unisex" names and those from other cultures.

If you received an email from Harini Amarasuriya, Carol Reed or Gro Brundtland I'm pretty sure you would welcome their preferred pronouns in their email signatures.
(BTW - the examples are all famous people and you can google them)

I have a unisex name and have been assumed to be male before people have met me.
Its very obvious what sex I am in person regardless of the style of clothing I choose to wear. I am comfortable with who I am and know I am female. If anyone met me and called me he/sir I would not be offended, rather I would think that they had an impairment of some sorts and would not give it another thought.

The issue with others chosing pronouns is the constant wanting validation from others. Work on yourself. If you truly believe you are female, for example, what others think about you is none of your business.
I think people should use others preferred pronouns where possible, purely for the sake of politeness and respect. You cannot however compel someone else to think in their own mind you are a sex you are not, or dictate how they perceive you in reality.
I will call you Jane rather than Jim, for example, out of kindness and decency but won't change how I perceive you in my own consciousness.

I think this is what I struggle with . The requirement I give them constant validation. I 'm a middle aged disabled woman and I'm tired. So tired of being a people pleaser. I only learned to say no to others relatively recently . I don't think I'm the only person who feels this way.

So I just tend to change the subject of not engage anymore with them. I'm not against the majority of transpersons who are decent but it's not my job to keep them safe from themselves or their own lack of validation .

Anymore than its their job to do that for me .

why does preferred pronouns impact on women's safeguarding?
a friend, born female, prefers the pronouns they/them, my hairdresser's has the courtesy to ask what pronouns I'd prefer them to use.

Contrastingly, I was once threatened with a knife by a lesbian in the female toilets of a club, Eternally grateful to the six foot guy in drag who disarmed her. I don't give a toss what pronouns either of them preferred to use,

Stop perpetuating the “suicide risk” lie. It’s dangerous, and has been used for years now to coerce the wider public into giving into so many unreasonable demands - that we let men into women’s spaces, that we pump children full of harmful drugs… all of it. When the UKs leading expert on suicide has to publicly state there is no evidence for such claims, and even the UCLA lawyer admits in court such claims are baseless, it’s time to give it up. What is harmful is constantly telling people they’re at elevated risk of suicide.

Mainly because, if you call a biological man ‘she’ for instance, you are saying and acknowledging they are a women.

what happened was the situation before the law was clarified where these people were then saying ‘I am a women no ifs, no buts’, everyone calls me a women so clearly they all accept me a women and so I should always be treated as a women so I’ll use the toilets/changing rooms etc.

language does matter and all the issues over the last 20 years has been caused by definitions and language use.

I don’t agree with “preferred pronouns” because you don’t have the right to determine how people speak about you when you’re not there - but they’re definitely a thing.

I have a preferred noun (eg I prefer Nicki to my full name Nichola), I have preferred adjectives (I’d like to be described as clever, resilient and successful) and I probably do have preferred verbs as there are some verbs I wouldn’t used in reference to my actions.

I just don’t get to dictate them to other people (except maybe the noun one, but that’s used to my face and so has a greater element of respect attached to it - I still can’t mandate people use it).

So while my work signature will NEVER include the words she/her (mostly because I actually don’t have preferred pronouns), I can fully understand that some people do. And that’s fine. You just can’t force me to use them.

This is what I posted earlier in the thread ...

If you agree to call a man 'she' you make it that little bit harder to argue why 'she' shouldn't be allowed into women's changing rooms, sport teams, domestic violence shelters, prisons.

Prioritising gender identity over sex by using preferred pronouns can distort the reality of what's going on and can make safeguarding women more difficult.

Take the recent Sandi Peggy case. Here are two ways to describe Dr Upton's actions ...

She entered the women's changing rooms and took her clothes off in front of the women present.

Or ...

He entered the women's changing rooms and took his clothes off in front of the women present.

Both of those statements describe exactly the same act, involving the same person. But they evoke very different reactions, don't you think?

Any changes in language that make it more difficult for women to define themselves or their rights are problematic as I see it.

That is not preferred pronouns, though. That is someone having a unisex name letting others know their sex so they know, following the conventions of English, what words to use. (Though I’m not sure I would need to know Carol Reed’s sex in order to send him a fan letter. I don’t use third person pronouns in direct communication with someone.)

No preference involved. Which is my (perhaps badly phrased) point. A female person with a typically female name doesn’t need to tell others her “preferred pronouns” are she/her, because those are the pronouns that apply to her in English. To say that’s a preference is nonsense, just as saying “I’d prefer that you refer to this chair as a chair” is nonsense.

I deal with a lot of colleagues in a particular non-Western country, who in turn deal with a lot of colleagues in the UK. Not one of them has pronouns in their signature. And no one in my department does either, and certainly never would have before about 5 years ago. We are able to get on and communicate with each other absolutely fine. Our sex is irrelevant to our job. If someone gets it wrong, so what?

Some people have said that this doesn’t matter. Language does matter. Words matter.

As soon as you refer to a male person using a female word you sow the seeds that that person is female. And that is a lie. A lie that can cause a lot of damage.

@WhenDaisiesPiedthis is ok to do.

At this stage you are just repeating yourself over and over again in long winded posts, , why the obsession?

I thought it was so 5 years ago yet people can't stop talking about and that they hate it? Maybe stop talking about it?

Mine is I/me people can make of that ehat they want

To be fair, there's a LOT less of the pronoun thing around than there was a couple of years ago.

I guess some companies are still holding out though.

Reverend and Rabbi are job titles, not a chosen identity.

But the thing about preferred pronouns in emails is they don’t necessarily reflect the person’s sex and are meaningless.

Unless you meet Harini in person or at least have a telephone or video call, you have no idea of whether Harini is male or female.

I think the only thing email pronouns are good for is knowing who is on the woo woo bandwagon.

“I think the only thing email pronouns are good for is knowing who is on the woo woo bandwagon.”

Exactly. Or the spineless let’s all be a #bekind handmaid. Both best avoided.

Yes, it's a very handy signifier.

Also, if they truly know in their bones that they're a woman, unicorn, Napoleon, whatever, then why do they need the constant validation from others?

It's just a way for, hitherto, totally mediocre, inadequate people to hold sway over others. We should never have pandered to them.

Yes, but while they say they know and it's sex-change in reality it's only a make-believe game. They need to be supported to fully immerse themselves in the imaginary role of what they think womanhood is.
While in keeping their strength, height, lack of periods, ability to shout at people who say no etc. Win-win.

That is a very warped perspective. @Enough4me

I agree. It's sad to see that this thread has descended into sneering at all trans people.