Teacher showing photos to kids of victorian dead children - slightly disturbing

[whyiwonderwhy]

I am finding this so disturbing I can't sleep! However I might be being oversensitive, who knows. It is the "but - WHY?" bit which is bothering me most.

The lesson was about the industrial revolution, and the subject of photography came up, 2 of the earliest photos were shown to the class (13-14yo) and then....I wish I could say the teacher showed photos of some of the extraordinary engineering inventions of the day, or of busy streets, or China, or something wonderful and extraordinary...but no, the teacher showed 10 photos of dead children and talked about how the Victorians would photograph dead children as though they were still alive, with the rest of the family, in a commemorative way. I have seen some in the past (I didn't learn about it at school however) and they are moving and tragic and disturbing. Nothing else, just these photos.

Just wondering...why? why would the teacher do this? Any ideas?

This teacher has form by the way. A lot of it. But this has for some reason blindsided me.

The post you reponded to was not off, just a different opinion from yours, politely written. You were "off" with absolutely everyone who did not agree with you. Nobody asked you if you are snifiing glue here, weird, considering is "socially accepted on Mumsnet" as you say. Sugesting that someone is sniffing glue is not light hearted, although it happened to me once to be told this (yes, on Mumsnet) I absolutely hated it. It does not matter someone said it to me, I would never do it to someone else just because it made me feel so low. Also, because my education do not allow me to talk like this. Snifing glue is what lowest form of addicts do when they run out of money for something else, so, how in the name of the education you pretend you have, could you not know that. Also, as I suspected ,you will carry on arguing. So, I will stop here as I feel like I am banging my head against a wall. You do you.

I think your posts to me are appallingly rude. So yes, I will do me in this respect. Thanks for not continuing to argue though, I will let it lie if you will.

In all seriousness, my ego is not involved in this at all. I am really shocked by some of the views of posters, including yours, genuinely. I wanted to find out more about what you think and why you think it and I think I have. I don't think that the changes you want to make are in the best interests of children or most ordinary people. I will leave it there now with you - carry on the insults if you wish, I will just ignore.

It isn't the case that I didn't return to answer your questions because I did't want to. It was more that a) it is nearly the end of the semester here and I am incredibly busy, not just with teaching but with another book due to the press, but mainly that b) I strongly believe in the power of education. My hope was, in my very first post, if I shared how these photographs (which you deemed irrelevant to the topic) actually provided a powerful lens through which to understand all the other - highly important - events of the Industrial Revolution, you might see something different in the material, perhaps even see its relevance.
That didn't happen, and that's okay. But, as you aren't my student but a fellow mum, I can only spend so much time on this.
So, when I offered really powerful important books that you might enjoy (really, I believe you would enjoy Drew Faust's book, This Republic of Suffering, it's an incredible read) you dismissed them as niche,
And, when I tried to explain my expertise in both my field (I am not a historian, by the way, hence my rather broad interests) you dismissed this too, doubting its possibility.
When you asked about funding sources, looking perhaps for some high powered inside agenda, I explained carefully where funding for these kinds of projects - in the humanities and the humanities-aligned social sciences - comes from.
When you asked whether I wasn't concerned about my child's exposure to material that wasn't age appropriate, or material that was supposed to encourage literacy but that didn't work, for example, I shared that OF COURSE I shared these concerns, but also that I hadn't found these issues in my son's school (while also noting that my experience was different, as my son is at a private school in the US system. He attends Sidwell Friends, if you want to see what kind of school it is). Even then, I still didn't reach you.
When I said that I believed that, if we sat down over coffee, we would have many shared opinions - something I still believe -- you disagreed that we would find that we felt the same in anyway. This statement was meant as an olive branch, an acknowledgment that you had concerns that I wanted to take the time to seriously engage with, and that - as fellow parents - we want the same things for our children, a rigorous education, in a safe and welcoming school, that will set them up well for the world beyond school.
I still believe that, believe that we would want the same things generally, for our children.
And I believe vehemently in the power of education, hence the reason I kept engaging.

But, honestly, I am busy. To give any more details on the roots of my expertise would mean exposing my identity, something I am not willing to do online. I did dm @nyancatdays to introduce myself, so perhaps she can vouch that I actually know something about these things. Funnily enough, I received an email this morning that my book on this very subject is short-listed for a major prize in the field.
But I have grading to do, graduation to plan for, dog to walk, son to spend time with, and I don't think that we were really getting anywhere, hence my bowing out.

@Ruthietuthie You will see that I have also not had time to post, it is perfectly fine and it is perfectly fine for two adults to disagree with one another - you do not need to offer an olive branch, and the fact that we disagree with one another's rationale is not a personal failing on either of our parts!

The only question I would really appreciate an answer to is - what misinformation do you think was given to health care staff? Just a very brief sentence - do you think the misinformation came from the US government officials or from the epidemiologists with relevant experience and expertise, from Hong Kong and South Korea for example?

Your information was very interesting and useful and although I disagree with your approach, I hope that I still showed respect and courtesy. I appreciate that my other questions were wider and given the lack of clarity around the issues would take time to respond to, it is not a problem.

@whyiwonderwhy, I am happy to answer your question on misinformation in our study on the long-term impact on nurses of working in Covid wards. Broadly, we are studying the experiences of medical staff, particularly nurses, during the Covid-19 epidemic and the long-term impact it had on them, but the most common examples of dealing with misinformation we have found are:

1. A dying person did not want to vaccinate, believing the anti-vaccination information that was circulating at the time, then had massive regret when they realized they were dying and wondered if vaccination could have prevented their deaths. For nurses working to assist patients through the dying process, already a very painful process, it was very difficult to know how to best support these deeply-distressed patients.
2. Family members of a seriously ill person on the Covid-19 ward. Some families held conflicting views (between family members, and/or between family members and medical staff). For family members who didn't believe Covid-19 was real, or thought a different medication regimen should be given (a common example was that they wanted their family member to be given chloroquine or injected with bleach, as Trump suggested in early 2020) there was conflict between family members and medical staff.
3. Here are some studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/9896/

This part of the study is part of a larger project which will improve nurse training to better equip them for the emotional and psychological strain of providing nursing in conditions of great uncertainty.

This from @Azandme sums it up for me:

"Your child learnt something today, and was interested enough to tell you about it"

My youngest child is six. Not year six, six years old, in year one.

She came home before Easter having learned The Easter Story in assembly and told me all about JC being crucified. I asked if she knew what that meant and she said "ooh yes, he got nailed to a cross by his hands and feet AND he had to wear a crown made of thorns. GROSSSSSSS!'

I mean would I (parent, not a teacher) have explained crucifixion to a group which included year one aged children? No, I'd have thought it a bit over the line, for that age. But she was entirely unbothered by it, and had clearly enjoyed the assembly enough to come home and tell us about it. There's no way I would question the school on the wisdom of teaching this detail, as @Azandme says, they obviously know how to engage the children and hold their attention!

OP I've seen the Victorian death photos. They're not graphic like some images and topics 13/14 year old children are exposed to at school. They're not brutally murdered people, they're just propped up dead people. They're odd, but on some I wouldn't have noticed they were dead if I'd not have been aware.

There has been things over the years that my eldest/her class has learned at school that has caused me a concern but largely I think it's good for children to not be restricted only to what us parents would assume is the right thing/level of information. One parent in my eldest child's year tried to stop the school showing Newsround at the end of the day in Yr 3/4 because they didn't agree with it. Why? Madness.

Let the staff get on and do their jobs.

You both want to know what I think and also won't listen to me any more?

OK

I've not insulted you. But funny how you've ignored my extensive post pointing out all your unreasonable and rude comments....

Yes. Kids don’t really get death and they accept “a man nailed to a cross” because they don’t know how horrific it actually was. And we wouldn’t want them to “get it”
As my 4 year old granddaughter said to her daddy recently as she wielded a cardboard sword, “I’m a PIRATE and I’m going to CHOP YOUR EYES OUT!” 🤣

Exactly @Ilovecleaning. I'd not have been happy if someone would have gone into the ins and outs of the reality of how horrendous a death crucifixion would've been, and scared the children with gore. I trust that our teachers know better than to do that!

As it was, clearly carefully done to provide the facts (when a child asked 'whats being crucified mean?', I'm told) without being unnecessarily graphic or frightening, then there's no issue.

As it was, my child's opinion of it all was that what happened to JC was 'really mean'.

Children should receive factual historical information in an age appropriate way and with appropriate context. History is amazing and fascinating but it can be grim! Humans are weird creatures and some parts of our history are absolutely barbaric.

Victorian death photos fall into fairly mild 'Horrible History' style educational material IMO. Pretty weird, a bit unsettling, but not inappropriate for Y9 aged children.