"can I have a word" from teacher

[ParentofPremie]

To avoid a drip feed this is quite long, apologies!

DS5 is in reception. Oldest in class.

Has a physical disability which can cause fatigue, and potentially has other difficulties which would be undiagnosed/unnoticed until he's older. His development was all higgeldy piggledy due to his physical disability so it's hard to see what is contributing to what, and we are trying to unpick whether some of his traits are ASD or due to developmental delays eg he talks a lot more than his peers and likes learning a subject in depth and asks a lot more questions, but it's potentially because that came more easily to him than the gross and fine motor skills where he's playing catch up. Or another example is he has only just started playing alongside peers but that could be because his brain was busy figuring out how to pick up a spoon and how to walk while their brains were busy figuring out how to talk to other toddlers. Lots of other little examples like this that could be this or that.

Attends school half day because a full day seemed too much.

When he first started school his personality seemed to shift overnight. He was initially asking to go home a lot. Then he stopped that after he overheard it fed back to me at parents evening but then the teacher would often pull me aside to "have a word" because he'd done something eg hit another child (softly, but still not acceptable), or tried to cut the desk instead of paper, or swung a thing around on a string potentially hitting himself or someone in the face, etc.
At home he was having lots of tantrums.
None of this was behaviour we'd ever seen in him before - he was well settled at preschool and would ask me to "go home and come back later as it was his space" and had never shown any aggressive behaviour to anyone. I posted on here (under a different name) and got a lot of "that's normal as they transition into school, they almost revert back to 2 year old behaviour while they get used to it".

But I found it all too much and decided to Flexi school him. Again, overnight there was a shift...he loved school again and the aggression/tantrums at home dropped away. I think they dropped away at school but I can't be sure whether the teacher wasn't "having a word" because I wasn't at the school gate and she was teaching at pick up or because things actually got better, and she doesn't seem to understand my question.

Now....we're trying to transition back to full time, taking it slowly. But already day2 teacher has "had a word".

I guess my questions are

1. When the teacher has a word, what am I expected to say. "Okay, I'll talk to him"? I do talk to him. But to me, he knows the thing he's done is naughty and the behaviour is communicating a need so I'm not sure a talking to is actually that helpful? Also, the teacher has already told him off, at length. Does he need it again?

1. The school are doing very little to understand what's behind his behaviour. At the meetings I had before I decided to Flexi school they suggested I introduce routines at home where he has to tidy up after himself, do tasks on his own, etc...but he already does these things. They also suggested we introduce a "self regulation" corner for him, and we've done that. It was a new concept for me, as we've always regulated together before as this is what every parenting book I read suggested. If he has a tantrum about something I set a limit and then listen to him move on or moan/cry/fall apart over it till he's done (no aggression allowed of course) and I own that I didn't think about how that might (not) equip him for a classroom as there aren't adults around to listen to him all the time. But it was a lesson learned and he's better at taking himself away to self-regulate now.

1. To me the fact that this sort of stuff only happens in school and (I think) only when he's doing a full day is telling us something. It feels to me like he's finding something hard but is unable to share that information for some reason. If I ask the the teacher they seem to have no idea where I'm coming from. Of course I also think it's vitally important to set limits around hitting/cutting table/swinging things or whatever else is going on. But I think it's also important to find out what's behind that behaviour?

AIBU to be frustrated by this communication? Or is this just school life? Was a just totally spoilt by a child who was more easy going when he was younger and just don't realise that sometimes kids can be arses for no reason at all? I am totally up for being told I need to grow a pair and change my attitude? I just don't think I was expecting the constant "can I have a word" type conversations and am not sure what to do with them!

Hi OP,

My Ds was like this and unfortunately the schools just can't do the kind of really kind thoughtful teaching that you would like them to do. The kids pretty much sink or swim and it sounds as though your DC is swimming on flexi-school and sinking on full time.

My DS semi-coped for years and then dropped out with terrible anxiety and panic attacks in his early teens.

It would be a good idea to save up for some private assessments because you will need good medical data to be taken seriously when the EHCP assessment does happen.

In the meantime it would be good to stay at half time until you are sure he can be happy in full time, and then make sure only to send him in when the teacher is present.

I don't have experience of a child with a physical difficulty. That must already be a challenge for you to manage. I do however have experience with the "have a word" scenario at the end of the school day. My 3 kiddo's are ND. With my eldest it became obvious that his teacher in his 2nd year of junior school had major difficulties with him. Unfortunately my kiddo was also very aware of this. We agreed to go forward with an assessment after meeting with the resource team but also requested a "good news" book, I.e. a notebook/journal that highlighted his good efforts during the day and might also let me know about any particular difficulty. It allowed me to praise his hard work (sitting sill was HARD!) but also took the "shame" element away for him of having teacher talk to mammy... it also forced the teacher- who was a bit 'difficult-' to find the good in him daily..
Would this be something you could suggest? It need only be a two line note...

Yeh you've summed it up perfectly. Thank you. It's really hard to find the words.

I totally forgot the teacher wasn't there on Fridays so that's my bad. I'll ask for his full time day to be changed next week to one where she's there as at least any feedback I get will be from someone who knows him better.

Thank you. I love how you've put this. I've tried this but am going to try it again wording it exactly like this, especially if there is another "can I have a word" moment next week. It's good to know how to handle personality clashes between us and the teacher and I'm sure it's not the only year I'll need tips on that!

@ParentofPremie if this is the first full day and not his regular teacher then as you say, a different day when reg teacher is there would be better. But also, he is not used to it, would be tired and probably keen to be home (so the TA threatening him with going home wasn’t ideal either). I think it would really help you to have a conversation around what comms you need and what support they expect of you when they have a word, so you all know what you are doing. See how things are after a few weeks of the new routine and then think about next steps.

I'm glad my thoughts were okay there.

One of the "can I have a word" moments for me was when a teacher told me to my face that both DC and I were autistic spectrum. The thing was that she said it like it was an insult and I already knew and was quite proud of it, because I was in a career that really required it.

The "can I have a word" thing can really sting sometimes.

I hope things get better there for you. You DC is very special and I hope you enjoy every minute.

There will be a parent/child advocacy department in your local council. In my area it’s called sendias, the name may vary but you can Google it or ring the sen department in your council and ask. The give advice/support to parents who feel school is not acting in a child’s best interests. If you are getting no where you can ask them to attend a meeting with you. ipsea is an online website that gives a lot of good advice around legislation and applying for a ehcp.

tbh I have found every year has been different for my son, it’s been totally dependent on the teacher. The teacher is the crux of it all, down to where your child sits if they are given sensory cushion/fidgets. If they are allowed to take a break, who they sit near etc. All these things can have a huge impact on how your son manages the day.

Hi, experienced professional here.

I’vevtried to read all the messages and you’ve received helpful advice around SEND adaptations and protocols.

However, I wanted to add a couple of things:

The behaviours being described by the teacher are, to some extent, normal for little boys, whether they have SEND or not. Not excusable, but I am concerned at the quickness to attribute differences to SEND rather than a ‘need to learn’. Children get frustrated, tired, feeling hemmed-in, particularly if they’ve been used to a more fluid pre-school, or don’t have siblings so haven’t learned a bit of give-and-take.

I get that you are very vigilant due to his disability, but try not to over-attribute and over analyse. In my experience, when little boys test the boundaries like this, a simple ‘no’ and an explanation of what’s expected works wonders. I’ve always made a note to teach expected behaviours, and praise children for being kind and when they get it right. Sometimes children don’t have the reasoning ability in the moment for a long conversation about feelings, or figuring out what to do and not do. I’m wondering whether the teacher does any of this, or whether expectations are a bit…..vague? Children prefer an adult who is in charge because it makes them feel safe. We’re in April now. I’d expect there to be much more routine and higher expectations in place to prepare for year one.

The good news is that, based on your descriptions, it sounds like your son has excellent capacity to learn. Given he is the eldest, he’s likely to prefer the calm, routine and expectations of year 1.

I’d be asking pattern-seeking questions about the circumstances where the behaviours occurred - the times of the day, the noise levels, the level of freedom vs. Instruction at the time, the type of activity.

What is the nature of the physical disability? Does the medication cause tiredness? What does the school’s accessibility policy say about adaptations?

Re the flexi-schooling - is there a chance your son has figured out that certain behaviours/words will cause you to ask for a part time timetable? My worry is that he’s not had much chance to go through a natural period of adjustment,

Hi OP, I've read most of the thread. I have a DC diagnosed with ADHD and ASD at 7 and looking back, she was showing clear signs of difficulty coping with aspects of the school environment before that. She has some physical issues too but much more minor than your son.

She got an EHCP finally when she was 11 and is now settled into year 7 of a mainstream comprehensive with a low level of support (but I picked it as they are good with SEN - for example they have around 70 DC in the school with EHCP while the schools her primary friends go to have between 0-3 EHCP (in the whole school!)

I am also a secondary school teacher and I'm afraid the entire SEN system in England appears to operate on some kind of weird "don't ask, don't tell" basis. I would be cautious of "wait and see" type advice. You need to play hard ball (politely).

I wanted to add two things: when you apply for an ECHNA, you must appeal to tribunal if the LA say no and then appeal again if they refuse to issue. Do not bother with mediation. I will share a link for the EHCP support thread on here.

Secondly, we're not far off the end of the school year and the crucial question is who is going to be teaching your child next year? You need to talk to them now.

You are aware that your child has a right to a full time education and the school can't force you into a part time timetable? If they send him home before the end of the day, that is actually a illegal exclusion if you don't receive the correct paperwork.

I think you are dealing with an inexperienced teacher and SENCO there and also a very small school that lacks expertise.

P.S. the poster that said "echo ball" was a victim of autocorrect I should think - they meant "EHCP ball".

www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5309128-ehcp-support-thread-no-5?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Yeh I'm worried I might be overanalyzing things. He's been under a microscope in terms of his development in a way his peers haven't been and I don't want to pathologise something that may be normal. But when his TA uses threats "you won't be able to come to school in the afternoons" (which isn't acctually her decision anyway) or "we'll leave without you if you don't pack your bag" it makes me think things must be really bad if she needs to resort to that with a 5 year old. But perhaps that's just her personality?

He says he wants to go to school full time now so I think he's motivated to stay there...it's us that are making it a phased return, he'd be (in theory) happy to jump right in.

Excellent advice.

To add, do you have consequences for behaviour? E.g. he cuts the table so he can’t have access to scissors. He can have them back when he can be trusted to use them safely. Would he understand that?

I think there is a danger with children with other needs for parents to be extra careful with them (I completely understand why. I can’t tell the force schooling, spending lots of time talking to him is you responding to his needs and the teacher missing the mark or is he able to control himself more than you think he can and that’s why the teacher tells you and probably doesn’t come across well to you as she thinks he is more capable?

I do think, as the poster above says, we can lose sight of what is typical behaviour for a child of that age. One of my children would become very distressed about minor things and there was a lot of trail and error at home about what worked. I had to back off from making myself central to her calming down when she was at school as she needed to learn on her own (as you said also happened to you).

Ah thanks so much for this. It's really insightful to learn there are secondary schools who cope better with SEN than others. I'll definitely bear that in mind. Thanks for the ehcp support link too, time to fill in forms again!

This thread is helping me paint a picture of what the teachers actually want from me. Thank you.

So cutting the table. Yes his scissors were taken away. He genuinely didn't know it was naughty. He hasn't used scissors much before due to his motor skill delays. So I think he was just experimenting. However it's taken me this long to realise that (happened in September) perhaps the teacher just wanted me to explain what scissors are for and what not.
Hes cut hair recently and likewise he genuinely didn't know that was not allowed as we cut his hair at home so he wanted to make his friend look beautiful. Again, I didn't initially understand what the teacher wanted from me when she told me, but I get it now (I think).

I don't feel like their communication has been clear (he cut X hair and I told him if he does that sort of thing he can't come to school in the afternoon, rather than he cut X hair, he didn't realise he's not allowed, can you explain it)
But I guess I need to fill in the communication gaps of these stressed and busy teachers.

Where it makes me think hes ND is that I feel that if these were common conversations the teachers would be clearer as they'd have had more practice
Although now I'm thinking perhaps I'm the one who isn't understanding them properly when it would have been obvious to anyone else 🙈

Oh goodness, I don't think it should be beyond the wit of a qualified teacher with 8 pupils and access to a TA (that's amazing - lucky them!) to say "put the scissors down. Scissors are only for cutting paper" or "we don't cut hair with scissors" to a 5 year old!

Did you look at other schools before choosing this one? Are there other options locally?

The TA shouldn’t be saying those things. It is possibly the case that the TA does the majority of interacting with him and after a while, relationships get frayed, particularly if the teacher chooses not to be the adult in charge and the TA is then left dealing with wild scissor action.

Actually a little bit of further thought on the TA - sounds like the feedback loop has turned negative.

Better language:

‘When you’ve packed your bag, then we can go’.
’Let’s see how fast you can pack your bag (boys love a stopwatch)’.
’well done you’ve got your coat on - excellent muscle skills with the zip - I wonder if you can also get that bag ready.’

I’m slightly worried about the TA. She’s human, but needs support. If the language is how you say it is, then boys internalise “they don’t like me” and this WILL cause them to be more likely to lash out.

I get the feeling that the teacher and TA are saying this but that the OP’s son is not following the instruction but following with lots of ‘why’ questions.
Im wondering if there’s over analysis going on and too much validating and discussing of feelings, too many words, rather than teaching clear boundaries ie OP telling her DC that if an adult asks you to stop cutting, you stop. One explanation should be enough. Not repeated ‘why?’s. There simply isn’t the time at school to deal with that level of pussy footing.
This needs to be sorted before year 1 when the learning becomes far more formal and behaviour expectations increase.
Good to be exploring possible SEND though whether ND or not, he still needs to be able to follow instructions.

It is quite possible that he lacks the receptive and expressive language to process and follow the instructions. The school needs to pull their finger out and request an EHCNA (or support the OP in doing so) so he can have a speech and language assessment and an educational psychology assessment. After all, the nursery were concerned enough to want this.

Quite what the OP is supposed to do regarding interactions at school when she is not there, I do not know!

OP, depending on household finances I wonder if it would be worth your seeking a private speech and language assessment?

asltip.com/find-a-speech-therapist/

www.rcslt.org/speech-and-language-therapy/how-to-find-a-speech-and-language-therapist/

Re consequences - it’s about knowing the child. A firm, non-shouty/non-shrieky ‘No’ and ‘scissors are for cutting paper’ ‘now show me how good you are at cutting a nice straight line for me’ is usually enough.

At that age, they really don’t know all the hidden rules, so we teach. If, after learning said rule, we’re still not using said scissors right, it’s probably a case of a clever child with exuberant personality thinking “i wonder what she’ll do if I carry on’. That’s the point of The Look and if it continues, take scissors away and explain why.

To be honest, acting swiftly in the moment with the teaching bit works 99% of the time. It avoids negativity, blame. Best to nip things in the bud and then everyone can move on and be happy again. For some children with anxiety, I would make a point of returning swiftly with some kind of praise so that they know I always always like them and care about them.

That said, sometimes teachers say all instruction/correction with the same high-pitched and sing-songy voice and associated body language they use for praise. This makes it confusing ESPECIALLY for boys.

Agreed in the main with this. I think some teachers just lack natural authority as well, and give all instructions like it’s an optional request. A firm, clear instruction (you should never shout nor need to shout) is all that is needed. I can’t tell you how much children love the safety of boundaries, knowing an adult will step in if someone is being (accidentally) dangerous. It doesn’t stop the fun and the laughter.

This is so so important. If the OP’s lad continues, children will shy away from him. If any child continues, things can escalate or become habitual. It puts them at risk when they’re going on a trip and need to cross a road.

Yeh, I think that's the issue, the repeated whys. I actually answer his questions at home unless he's being obviously obtuse so I suppose he isn't used to the "because I said so" type approach

Actually, it is important we explain if the child asks. ‘Because scissors are sharp and what you are doing will hurt someone’, but then not entertain any further shilly shallying tactics (adult in charge).

Your lad sounds clever, switched on. He’s assessing the adults and seeing which ones he can push the boundaries with. Again, very normal.