Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

[ZoggyStirdust]

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

Ah, the rather elitist point of view that "we know something you don't know" and are infinitely superior because of it. Rather smug don't you think? And exclusionary. And why dogma/ religion/ the Bible are the perfect man-made tools of subjugation and torture. (See the Inquisition and Witch trials as two examples - also not exclusive to Christianity, but mirrored by other faiths for time immemorial.)

Religion is about faith, yes, otherwise it is not a religion.

We cannot serve two masters. If there were more than one actual god then which one made us and should be followed? We were not created by rival gods or by a committee. There can only be one God.

God gave us life. Freely. For a limited period. This earthly life is a sample and a leaning opportunity for the real deal, everlasting life with God who loves us and with people who love God and His people, including you and me. If somebody doesn't want to go beyond that, nobody forces them.

People are invited into Heaven if they accept and show willingness to fit in there. Of course there are rules. What community doesn't have rules so that people can get along with one another?

So you would be sent to the burning fires of hell for eternity because you don’t want to join god’s fan club?

I'm sorry if trying to explain my or others' interpretation of the Bible comes over as smugness or elitist. Not intended at all. Christianity is about humility, but with conviction of God's truth and love.

Salvation is offered to everyone who believes, including people of other faiths or belief systems who convert. Is that exclusionary?

I'm not on here to discuss witch hunts except to say they were driven by the forces of evil, not by God. Jesus tells us to drive out demons. He didn't say persecute people who you think may be possessed by them.

If that is somebody's choice then God, with sadness, honours it. It's always a choice for people capable of informed decision.

And I knew someone who, talking to Christians in the street, said she was going to Hell. She died of a sudden massive heart attack soon after.

So you believe in demons? Not a JW by any chance are you? Or something of that ilk?

As for the witch hunts being driven by forces of evil I would love you to expand on that, because everything was done in the name of Jesus by fervent, Bible thumping believers. Or don't you want to talk about that because it disrupts the loving God narrative?

So our choice is fan club member or hell? Anyway, while you’re here did you see my post asking you if you would still carry on as you are with your faith and bible study etc if god told you personally that you’ve not been selected for heaven (or hell). You’ll just be dust. How would the intensity of your relationship with god be after hearing that?

If there were no Heaven after the end of this life, it would all be meaningless. Not just my feeling, the apostle Paul said so.

Far fetched? The churches and ministries I pay most attention to see amazing things happening. I think it's odd not to believe, but when I consider how many churches don't teach the whole Bible including the spiritual gifts then I can understand it. Jesus confirmed His teaching with signs and wonders. I think it's quite wrong to neglect these things.

You haven’t really answered the question. I didn’t say there was no heaven, I said if god told you that you weren’t selected to go.

Can you post some evidence of these "amazing things"? Because when I've experienced signs and wonders, it's been put down to probable mental illness. Also, demonic forces by Christians. How does one know if an "amazing thing" is God? Confirmation bias perchance?

As lovely as the concept is that we’d meet up with loved ones in heaven when we die and live happily ever after for eternity, it defies all logic and literally goes against everything we know about how the world works.

We could make up any scenario and say this is what we believe will happen - for example

1- When we die we wake up again and….there’s are millions of beds for us to relax on and a million TV channels to chose.

2- When we die we wake up again and…. there are fairgrounds for a million miles where you don’t queue ever and it’s such fun

3-…… there are restaurants that pay you to eat as much as you want and the food is such that you don’t put on weight.

We could literally use infinite different scenarios and they are all equally as valid and unlikely as the heaven concept of paradise.

We have evolved to have the thought processes we do and I get people believe their spirit lives and is separate form our physical body but where are these spirits before we are born? I would bet my house in the fact that when we die there is nothing in exactly the same there is nothing before we’re born. We can’t remember being on our mother’s tummy therefore it’s logical to assume when we die the same happens…. Nothing. Obviously we’re not aware of the ‘nothingness’ because we cease to exist.

I hope I’m wrong. I would love to be wrong and to think I would see my loved ones when I die in heaven but it’s so unrealistic that I can’t possibly take it seriously.

Absolutely not JW! A Bible-believing charismatic Christian, so I believe in the spiritual gifts - including prophecy, healings, discernment of spirits, driving out evil spirits, miracles, tongues. So yes I know there are evil spirits aka demons.

I think one of the church's greatest errors has been believing that these ended with the Apostles. Clearly they did not because God still lets us use them, more so in recent years.
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-life/what-are-spiritual-gifts-understanding-the-types-and-discovering-yours.html

Re: witch hunts. People can be sincere but sincerely wrong. Doing something physical like seizing somebody and ducking or burning them "in the name of Jesus" does not demonstrate His authority or power. That was not doing God's work.

But those doing that persecution believed they were doing God's work. Why didn't he interven and say "Woah, not in my name?"

So a serial rapist and murderer who believes in Jesus is forgiven and goes to heaven.

But an atheist who dedicates their life to caring for others, does endless charity work, is kind, loving and generous, but doesn’t believe in Jesus… will go to hell.

Got it.

Also, had a look at your link.

How do we know those "gifts" aren't part of the evolutionary process? We only have the word of man that God endowed them. If demons exist, how do we know it's not from dark sources? How do we know it's not all psychological manipulation, both internal and external? What is your evidence for demons? Please provide robust evidence for your assertions.

I know which company I would prefer to be honest.

I'm sorry, but I just can't manage the mental gymnastics needed to think of a God who is unconditionally loving but who condemns those who choose not to worship him to his dumping ground just for not worshipping him. If a human parent demanded worship and unquestioning obedience in everything - no matter how irrational or unreasonable - and then slung the children out into the street for not complying, that parent would face serious consequences. And yet because an entity claims to be God, they get a pass? Nope. If God can't even meet basic standards of human decency, he does not deserve worship.

Edited to clarify: This applies to all deities, not just the Christian one.

Who is unconditionally loving AND omnipotent AND capable of answering prayers (indeed, he apparently definitely answers some) … but chooses only to answer some while he ignores those of others including people in desperate situations, children being sexually abused etc.

If that god is real, he’s such a narcissistic monster I’m glad not to know him.

God is a supernatural God by definition - He made the world and us. He raised people from the dead. You get the idea - His powers are greater than those we are used to. Heaven is supernatural, it does not work solely by natural earthly principles.

Think how chaotic it would be if anyone could exercise supernatural powers here, for good or evil.

I believe the spirit enters the body at the moment of conception. The Bible says God knew us from before the world was made, so He made our spirits a very long time ago.

If you want to know more, look up some of these names on the Web and on YouTube -

James Maloney
Ian Andrews
Andrew Wommack
John Bevere
Steven Furtick
Bill Johnson at iBethel Church
Joseph Prince
Joyce Meyer

Visit some independent charismatic churches. You'll find them welcoming. It's hard to understand Christianity with its proper supernatural component without meeting people who believe and live it. They won't make you feel uncomfortable.

In Heaven this is about the person they become, not the person they have been.

Please post one piece of evidence that verifies your claims.

I'm recommending listening to people who know far more than I do and who explain things much better. I can't improve on that.

Not really sure what a charismatic Christian is (did a quick google) but can you explain what the difference in the life of one versus the difference in the life of an athiest. For argument’s sake we’ll say both people are very happily married, have healthy thriving children, well paid jobs and both are living content happy lives. I’m not talking about the afterlife, what is the difference in their earth life?

I’m confused. You say ‘think how chaotic it would be if anyone could exercise supernatural powers here, for good or for evil’ but also believe that god does exactly that? That’s what a miracle is, surely? You said you’ve seen him do amazing things (which must be supernatural as he doesn’t have a physical body on earth), so how can you also say the world would be chaos if someone used their supernatural powers?

If you believe in miracles, you believe god is using his supernatural powers. He just chooses not to sometimes, even for desperate believers in pain or suffering abuse. That’s why I couldn’t respect or worship him.

If he didn’t answer any prayers at all maybe I would feel differently about the logic believers follow. But to believe that he can and does answer some prayers, but would leave some believers in such horrific, intolerable, devastating situations… I simply cannot understand describing that god as all powerful and loving.

Ok but the hypothetical atheist I described who has been selfless, loving, caring and kind all their life still sounds like pretty good company to me even if they were to choose not to believe in Jesus / god. I don’t think that makes them become a ‘bad’ person deserving of suffering.

What does hell look like to you? Is it eternal pain and suffering? That’s a genuine question as I’m not sure of your belief on that front.