Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

[ZoggyStirdust]

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

I do the right thing as a good human being and not because a religion tells me I have to.

Have you ever heard of a community without rules? Would you want to live with people who are allowed to do whatever they feel like doing?

Questioning, to understand, is allowed and encouraged. If somebody doesn't want to live that way, nobody forces them to choose Heaven.

In that case, all you need do to get a place in Heaven is believe and accept it. Is that a great sacrifice?

Answering for me, not that poster, but yes it would be a huge sacrifice. It would mean relinquishing all I stand for in terms of logic, understanding, open mindedness and fairness

Are you able to force yourself to believe things you don't think are true?

Apart from the obvious heinous things (murder etc) what else might get you sent to hell instead of heaven

Wearing clothes made of 2 fabrics or touching the skin of a dead pig apparently

or is the bible wrong on those?

It will be different there. Without worrying about money, buying or renting a home, having enough to eat and wear, people threatening, stealing, or slandering you, what is going to upset you?

You'd still be you, but you'd have learnt enough to fit in with Heaven's lifestyle.

And your proof/ guarantee/ demonstration of that is what exactly?

You can be forgiven of any sin except not recognising and believing in Jesus.

Are the two things I quoted sins?

So that's how they get round protecting paedophile priests.... got it.

What happens to that really good decent human being, who all his life has helped others, helped his friends and family, the community, and was just a really nice person. But he refuses to accept god through Christ. What happens to him when he dies? Does he go to hell for not believing?

What happens to the man who was horrible his entire life, a serial killer, but in his older years turns yo Jesus and asks for forgiveness, and wants to submit to your god. What happens to his man when he dies? Does he go to heaven?

If you study what God says in His Bible, talk to Him and listen, go to a Bible-believing church, you will believe things, one at a time at your own pace.

Why not do ‘version 2’ for a more sophisticated people & clear up some of the quite understandable confusion?

But doesn’t that sound just a little bit boring and repetitive? As have posted before, like how the novelty of an all-you-can-eat buffet soon wears off. It’s sounds appealing to a child, but as you get older you realise that buffets are not all they are cracked up to be. There’s a lot more pleasure to be had in a decent restaurant. Quality over quantity every time for me. I’m happy with 80 or 90 years of a varied and interesting life; an eternity of anything sounds awful.

Will you not feel terribly sad if you are in heaven but those you love dearly eg non believing children are damned to hell?

& are the ‘degrees of bad’ accounted for?

Oh ok. So when you said that all you have to do is believe in Jesus, you actually meant spend a lot of time studying etc in the hope that at some point it will come true.

Still, I suppose that's easier than doing the things that Jesus said his followers should do like giving away all your possessions to the poor.

That isn’t necessarily what stops you from worrying or being anxious or being upset.

If some of us were sent to a paradise island with our family and friends and didn't have to worry about money or safety it still doesn’t wipe those fundamental emotions away. Even if we took sickness out of the equation what emotions will be experiencing for eternity (other than love for god).

The Bible says we are saved by faith alone by God's grace. A person who lives a life of loving and giving to others is almost there - but if their pride makes them rely on their good works instead of humbly accepting that nothing they can do will earn a place in Heaven - it's a gift from God - then they know the rules, choose to disobey and miss out. It's tragic and difficult to come to terms with that, but it's their choice.

The sinner who repents, submits to God and accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour - yes, he goes to heaven.

It's about faith and trusting and accepting Jesus. We can't buy a place by our efforts. Its value is more then anybody pay.

The problem @KeepHopeful is that your reasoning is circular. You believe the Bible is the truth and the answer to everything, therefore if it isn't in the Bible, it isn't true and you don't want to know.

You have taken the leap.of faith needed for that to work and in doing so you have abjured part of your free will and independent thought. You are entitled to do that, but it doesn't mean your beliefs are the truth and your version of faith is the only correct one.

A God who demands recognition as the one and only is absolutely conditional and transactional in nature.

I think the Bible covers all that. God and His rules are entirely fair. Love and justice run through the whole Bible. People who don't see the logic have not yet understood what the Bible says. It works as a whole. Some people doubt its truth because they try to find meaning selectively or incompletely.

Gosh, so it most definitely is the case of “submit or else”. I don’t understand how a god who behaves like this gives any one hope and comfort. This is not love, this is intimidation through fear.

Do you ever have moments when you think it all sounds rather far-fetched? Do you feel you have to be on top of it every day, working out whether your faith is sincere or just a means to get into heaven (I mean possibly subconsciously it’s a means). If there wasn’t heaven at the end if it all for you would you still put as much time and effort into it? Would you still study the bible and follow god/Jesus so loyally if god told you that you were not selected to go to heaven and nothing you did would change that.