Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

[ZoggyStirdust]

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

How well do you know the Bible? The New Testament tells us that we're given a life on Earth to prepare for eternal life when we leave here. Death of our earthly body is intended to be transition to eternal life in a new, sickness-free body. God's plan is for people to prepare for Heaven by believing that He wants them to go there, and living in a way that makes them ready for life in Heaven. He knows that's challenging but He helps us.

Christians talk about death quite a lot because it's the turning point where we either go to Heaven, or not, depending on choices we have made. To go there we have to tell Jesus we accept Him as Lord and Saviour, and try to live as He requires so that we will fit into the Heavenly way of life, which is based on love.

Our eternal life actually begins here when we accept Jesus. A relationship with Him is enormously life enhancing when we have faith. He wants us to feel joy, and to encourage other people in their faith and lives, and to tell non believers what they can have and how to receive it.

So would you believe the Bible if someone gave you the "right" explanation of how dinosaurs fit into the scheme of things?

I'm really sorry, but there is nothing I can see about any of this outlook that changes the utterly sadistic approach that your "God" appears to have. It's brainwashing. Put up with any amount of suffering gladly because "rewards in heaven". As I said above, it's a similar mindset to MLMs where any injustice that is suffered is put back on the individual for "doing it wrong" even though all instructions have been followed.

You also see it in the New Age cults. If one more person tells me I just need to raise my vibration, and that "I'm asking for" the number of overwhelmingly shitty experiences I'm constantly dealing with, things might get very messy indeed.

I am not in fear of drowning! The Bible can only be fully understood by reference to to its context. The creation description was written thousands of years ago for people with little concept of time and no knowledge of how the earth and its life forms came to be as they are.

Try to imagine somebody, who lives by growing his own food and making his own clothes, and really only knows how to do that. Would you give him a book with all the detail that you would like, when he can't even read?

Even with the best intentions how can anyone be ready for a life in heaven? You can’t have the same emotions, temperament, personality when you’re in heaven as nothing will be different to here. I would still swear if I hit my toe (assuming I am not numb of any feelings), I will still be impatient and get grumpy etc, unless I am given a brand new or different brain. If you’re given a new or different brain then how can you prepare to be ready for a life heaven?

We know how dinosaurs fit into the scheme of things, in terms of the 14 billion years since the Big Bang. What we don’t know is how the stories in the bible can fit into the creation of the universe, the development of life on earth, the first human like creatures 7 or so billion years ago and emergence of Homo sapiens as we know them today 300,000 years ago.

It is likely that since the emergence of Homo sapiens people have invented stories to make sense of the world around them, and we know that civilisations have worshipped any number of gods over the millennia. The current popular religions of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism are the latest in a long line of religions which, ironically, continue to evolve as life on earth evolves!

@Parker231

Here's a discussion on the issue of evil/suffering from a polytheist perspective. Ocean Keltoi discusses the topic from 11.09 to 18.30. I'll go into a few of his points below, but I recommend watching that segment if you're interested.

First of all, polytheists traditionally (and mostly still do) hold that while deities have power and influence, they are NOT all-powerful, all-knowing or all-loving, which is how God is understood in the Christian monotheist tradition.
So as a polytheist, I might say that deities are unable to prevent evil - they may not be aware/knowledgeable of all the evil things happening in the world, and even if they are aware of some of it, they may not have the ability to do anything about it. In some cases, deities may not even want to do anything about it (like I said, we - polytheists - don't see the gods/goddesses as all-loving.)

Another suggestion that Ocean Keltoi gives is the 'greater good' theodicy, which argues that the existence of certain kinds of evil allows a greater diversity of good in the world - when someone suffers unjustly, people might rally around to help them, for example. So certain kinds of evil and suffering are necessary in order for there to also be the greatest number of expressions of goodness.

But of course, there are also forms of suffering that are unnecessary for the fulfilment of good actions - Ocean gives the example of "a faun dying alone in a forest" - and then we return to the earlier point that the deities are not omnipotent, omnipresent beings.

A direct quote from Ocean - "Traditional polytheists also hold that the gods are not the only powerful agents, but that there are also malicious forces in the universe. Within Heathenry, there are stories of Jotunn, trolls and other beings that bring great harm to the gods and to humanity...there are stories of the gods in struggle with each other, there are stories of kinds of gods engaging in destructive war against each other. So the problem of unnecessary suffering is easily explained by stating that the gods, while powerful, do not govern every event in the universe, and may not always be in agreement. Therefore, unnecessary suffering, while being frustratingly unnecessary, takes place."

@Tryingtokeepgoing

And those older gods/goddesses are still being worshipped today. By a small minority, of course, but belief in the older gods has certainly not gone. Most contemporary pagan polytheists believe in the existence of all deities from all pantheons, although our personal interest/attention will only be given to a particular few.

Your god’s love and acceptance is very conditional, and he seems very capricious and unpredictable, inflicting pain on innocent humans but telling them it’s all part of his plan and we have to trust him. And if he’s in a good mood he might heal some one. And the constant threats that If we don’t worship him we will spend an eternity in suffering, in hell.

If an earthly father ever treated his own children like this, you know social services would be knocking on his door.

And why would you want to spend eternity in the presence of such a volatile entity? Where is this love, that everyone, speaks of?

When I read the Bible I find God's demonstration of love for the people He created out of love. Why say He is sadistic? Does the New Testament describe methods of torture that He deliberately inflicts on us?

He promises believers that He will look after their needs and Christians are often amazed by things He does for them. Of course there are challenges and hardships, but He either provides a solution or helps us through them.

I don't understand your point about MLM. If you mean Mormons, who are big on MLM, let me say that Mormons are not Christians. Mormonism is a fake Christian cult.

I'm sorry you're constantly having to deal with very difficult things. Let me make a suggestion. Ask for prayer in one or more of these ways -

1. visit a Bible-believing church and tell them whatever you feel like sharing. If they don't welcome you, try another.

2. go online and look for prayer lines (by phone) and prayer walls. Lots of Christians are willing to pray for you, without making judgemental comments

If you don't believe God is real, let Him show you He cares. If He isn't real, nothing will happen anyway so no harm done!

Oh my days.

I know you mean well, and your belief is sincere, but don't. Please, just don't.

If Mormonism is a "fake Christian cult" is it fair to describe Christianity as a fake Jewish cult?

The threats about Hell are warnings. Important difference! If we believe that Jesus came to enable us to live for ever in a place full of love and free from fear and suffering, we can accept His offer. It's open to all. He wants everybody to want to go there, and for nobody to miss out. Read the New Testament and see that it says this.

If you went to a church like the Bible-believing ones I know, you would start to find out about the love and get a quite different perspective. People there will encourage, not threaten.

God's love is unconditional. Luke 23:42-43 says that Jesus told the criminal on the cross next to Him that he would join Him in paradise - because he believed, he was accepted. Doesn't that show love?

God's love is not unconditional at all. It depends on worshipping and believing in him. It is absolutely transactional.

Precisely this.

The irony in the concept that whatever religion a person follows is the true religion and the correct one and the rest aren’t legitimate. Funny that ….

Not interested in debating doesn’t sound very open minded

Interesting idea! No, because Christianity is about Jesus coming 2,000 years ago as the Messiah, the sent one. Jews believe in Him but think he has still to come. But there are the Messianic Jews who worship and live as Jews but believe that Jesus came, died and rose. Three different religions, not cults.

Very selective love. Only given to those who obey his rules and worship him without any questioning

It means I have other priorities! To me there are more pressing issues than discussion of how dinosaurs fit in with the Bible narrative. Lots of things in the Bible seem more relevant.

Most Christians are not creationists and evolution is accepted e.g. by the Church of England. Indeed, the study of the world as it is and how it works has been supported by Christianity for centuries because it was seen to glorify God, whose creation these things are.
The Biblical account of creation is a nation-building story. It's point is not its truth but that the God being followed by the people of Israel was a creator god, not the embodiment of a natural force, e.g. a god of thunder, or fertility - this view was unusual in antiquity, as was the idea that such a god was universal and not attached to a place - a lot on this in the OT. Jesus talking of his house having many mansions is firmly based on OT revelations that the god who calls Israel is a universal god, whose salvation is open to all.
Another view of the Genesis stories is to see that the world is good - God is described as seeing what he has made as 'good' around 11 times (haven't got Genesis handy, so not going to count) meaning that the material world is as sanctified as the spiritual world, there is no sacred and profane, only what is sacred. Thus, we are instructed to care for the world. Our having spilled oil over the Niger delta, filled the oceans with plastic and thrown sewage into rivers suggests that we are now very much at odds with God, if we believe in him/her, and that we need to correct our behaviour before it destroys us whether we believe in God or not. Comsumerism has very much accelerated the process of degradation and it is a form of behaviour we would be better without and which is, anyway, unsustainable.
I don't believe in creationism (I do believe in the theory of evolution, just as I believe in biology) but I can see why the story is useful and gives a direction to our behaviour both towards the earth itself and the numerous lives that depend upon it, as also how we treat ourselves and other people - that all are in the image of God means that all are of equal worth.

Well, the rules are not unwarranted: don't steal, murder, rape, hate, make others lives intolerable - treat everyone as you would wish to be treated. Don't destroy the earth. Why would you not obey those rules?

No, it's unconditional. Come to him whatever you are, whoever you are, whatever you have done, in repentance for what you have done of evil and he/she will welcome you.

But there’s a fundamental point in trying to get at

if you believe the bible is literal in the face of proof it’s not, that means you are happy to disregard facts to stick to your dogma.

if you believe the bible can be interpreted, then that makes you open minded to facts and I’m interested in what parts of the bible you accept can be disregarded, and which parts cant

We have one. It's called transgenderism.

Giving live only when a set of criteria is met and adhered to is the very definition of conditional