Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

[ZoggyStirdust]

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

I am guessing they are talking about the end of times, or the rapture, according to the bible.

Yes - daily - am a news addict. Nothing significant now compared to many occasions over the years.

What do you know in the news, we don’t?

Which isn’t going to happen - the world will continue as it is now.

Of course. The world will continue as it is. Different and new religions will come along, inevitably, to try it on with humanity. In fact, we are due an another major, new religion, about now.

The other thing about the end times is that it presupposes that humans were and always will be the dominant species on earth, and that if we end, everything ends. That's immensely arrogant. If humanity wipes itself out in some kind of apocalypse, whether natural or nuclear, life on earth will continue. It will evolve, and perhaps another sentient species will emerge. We aren't all that.

And all the religious arguments against evolution are predicated on the 'God of the Gaps' argument. Essentially: If you don't have a narrative that is 100% consistent and complete, the whole narrative and all of its parts are therefore wrong. Whereas of course a creation myth, created by people, is going to have more internal consistency because people have authorial control over what's in it.

Lastly, I take issue with the poster who suggested that the Bible can't be a harmless piece of fiction because otherwise people wouldn't get so riled up about it. That poster is right: the Bible isn't a harmless piece of fiction. It's a hugely harmful one which for millennia has been used to kill and oppress people according to the political purposes of the day. That is why people get riled up about it. The same thing applies to all 'holy' books: they are dangerous tools used to manipulate.

Why do you think he heals some people and leaves other children, for example, to die long slow deaths in agony? What justification could there be for that in your view, if you believe him to be a loving, kind and omnipotent god?

@KeepHopeful

What's your position on the existence of dinosaurs?

Jesus still has his scars. When he reappeared resurrected to the disciples he showed them the scars on his hands and in his side. That's his eternal body.

@Puzzled4

This is where polytheism, in particular pagan polytheism, is different to Christian monotheism. These other Gods and Goddesses do not require/demand that people believe in them/worship them. Which is why some pagan polytheists believe all the deities exist, but choose not to honour them or engage with them. Other polytheists may choose certain deities to honour and form a relationship with, but it's our choice; there's no compunction and no threats of punishment if we don't.

Open minded. Whatever evidence or arguments may be presented for their existence or when, does not affect my belief in God. I'm more interested in matters that actually affect me.

Interesting.
I think there is concrete proof but let’s say you haven’t seen it, and when you do, you’re open to it.

does that mean you’re open to the bible not being a literal record of events?

and if that’s the case, are you open to it being wrong?

I can't find any mention of dinosaurs in the Bible and I am not interested in debating whether they have relevance to its accuracy.

Dinosaurs existed for over 160 million years, on this planet, pre man, in oppose to the mere 6000 years the bible tells us the world has existed. How can such a fundamental aspect of our earth’s evolution be omitted from our supposedly most sacred text?

I'd rather comment on things I know something about, than on complex controversial issues which experts have argued over for centuries and of which I know very little.

My comment was based on a church leader's guess at how new bodies will appear. The Bible doesn't give practical details of what our bodies will look like. It does say that people will have new bodies, and there is no sickness in Heaven. It seeks reasonable to think that they will be free from visual evidence of illness or injury, but that's only conjecture.

Jesus bore all our suffering for us, so the fact that He came back to Earth with His scars doesn't actually imply that we will have scars from injuries, skin disease or whatever.

If my idea of how people may look offends somebody, well, sorry, I'm only guessing.

But what is the controversial aspect that you mention? Is it that dinosaurs are not mentioned in any holy texts in regards to evolution? Surely the reverse is true given the concrete and indisputable evidence, based on clear and systematic research?

Any discussion of dinosaurs in a faith context must lead to the creation/evolution controversy. Scientists and theologians have debated that extensively for a very long time. The accuracy and validity of carbon dating over very long periods is highly controversial. The validity of Darwin's Theory of Evolution is highly questionable since there is no proof that one species can evolve into another. There are no fossil records of intermediate species, only groups of apparently similar species.

I have no particular knowledge of the subject, and I don't see it as essential to proving or disproving the Bible's authenticity and authority. I'd rather spend time on things I know and care about.

Why do you think he heals some people and leaves other children, for example, to die long slow deaths in agony? What justification could there be for that in your view, if you believe him to be a loving, kind and omnipotent god?

Quote

Healing is a special interest of mine. I know churches with amazing healing ministries. I've read and listened to healing evangelists and met one personally. I have seen healings, have ministered a few myself in small ways, and heard about some truly amazing miracles of healing.

Books have been written about God's healing, about healing ministries, and how to do it ourselves. The way God shows His love by healing people is wonderful. It's fascinating that he sometimes uses people in a big way in healing ministry who themselves have disabilities - some have had bad stammers - quite a disadvantage when they speak in large meetings or appear on TV!

God can and does heal serious diseases, injuries and disabilities. Sometimes He does, sometimes not. Much is said and written about this. He will not heal people without prayer. Somebody - the person ministering, people praying, or the recipient of healing - must have faith for it. Faith is essential. But even when there is plenty of faith and prayer, some people are not healed. Nobody knows why except God. He always has His reasons and even if He told us, we probably wouldn't understand or accept His explanations. His ways are not our ways.

I know and have known people with very strong faith, who could attest to God's love, provision and healing in many ways. I have no doubt about God's love, grace, mercy, wisdom and power. One of life's biggest frustrations is not understanding why some people get healed and some don't. There can be all sorts of reasons why healing doesn't happen, but sometimes when you know the people concerned it just doesn't make sense.

If somebody, adult or child, is suffering and nobody is ministering healing or praying with faith, we can't blame God for not doing what He isn't being asked to do. If there is some serious ministry or prayer, then we can reasonably ask, why no healing? Sometimes the reason is that God wants somebody to have more faith, or to do something differently. He may have other reasons. But I agree with you that it's hard to understand why He would let children suffer horribly if people are praying for them. If that's what you're referring to.

If you want to discuss this further after this thread times out, you can PM me, or possibly start your own thread - but then I probably wouldn't know about it unless you PMd me!

KeepHopeful · Yesterday 21:23

I can't find any mention of dinosaurs in the Bible and I am not interested in debating whether they have relevance to its accuracy.

Well, of course not; it would be terribly inconvenient for you to have to address actual, verifiable facts, rather than blind belief.

So just to be clear, you do not believe that dinosaurs existed and that the earth is around 6 thousand years old, because that is what the bible says is true?. Do you also believe that Adam and Eve were real human beings, and that the garden of Eden was an actual and real place?

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/where-did-dinosaurs-come-from.html

Id suggest you visit the Natural History Museum and speak to the experts who have researched dinosaurs. They existed.🦕

Quite apart from anything else, Bishop Usher overestimated the length of a human generation, so his calculations should have concluded that humans have only been around for 4,500 years.

@KeepHopeful you are adhering to the Gods of the Gaps argument like someone drowning. That's the problem when people step to the extremes of faith - thought and question go out of the window and next thing you know, we're burning witches.

Why do Christians claim that their religion is all about love and understanding whilst endlessly focus on death? Why can’t you focus on still enjoying life instead of end of day scenarios and endless rules. No wonder us non believers consider religion wrong and weird.

@Parker231

I can understand the dislike of these expressions of Christianity (although to be fair, there are other forms of Christianity that don't endlessly focus on death/end times.)

However, your last sentence gives the impression that you're equating specific expressions of Christianity as the sum total of 'religion'. There are numerous other religions out there that are very different in expression to Christianity, or other forms of monotheism.

Many polytheistic pagan religions do not have 'rules' as such, and while they believe in continued existence in the afterlife, there isn't an exclusive focus on death.