Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

[ZoggyStirdust]

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

Love how the goalposts change in religion.😆

Seems heaven even has its beauty standards.

Destined to be judged for eternity… It is like mumsnet 🤣

@KeepHopeful

I find it quite offensive that someone would think my scars need to be removed for me to be an ‘improved’ version of myself.

I would hope a kind and loving god wouldn’t be so focused on looks.

Surely he would just create a heaven where looks don’t matter as nobody is judgmental, rather than ‘improving’ people’s looks.

Why would he need to do that in your opinion? What would the motivation or benefit be in a heaven full of good people, free of judgment and ‘sin’?

@BunnyLake

While I do believe the Christian God exists, as a polytheist, I see him as one of many, and I have no interest in engaging with or worshipping him. Other deities have grabbed my interest.

This is one of the things that I find agreeable about pagan polytheism. First it's the theistic inclusivity (while there may be particular deities/pantheons that we attach ourselves to, polytheism sees no limit to the number of gods/goddesses, so we don't deny the existence of others, the way monotheists do.)

Secondly, there is no demand or order to worship the gods in pagan polytheism. People can believe they exist, but choose not to worship, honour or engage with any at all. Engaging and venerating the deities is - almost always - a personal choice, rather than a requirement. (I say almost always, because there have been accounts from some contemporary pagan polytheists of a deities making themselves present to them and pretty much insisting on some kind of engagement, but those circumstances are very few and far between.)

If pagan polytheism, there is also no punishment for those who either ignore or do not believe in the deities.

My understanding is that people accepted in Heaven are given new bodies which are replicas of their old ones but without sickness, injury or damage. I don't think they are otherwise improved in an artificial sort of way.

Man/humankind was intended to live by feeling, giving and receiving love. People wanting to achieve that can only do so completely with Jesus's help. Everybody is invited. Nobody who doesn't want that is forced into it.

(My impression, not a precise interpretation of the Bible).

Would healing pain, disease or injury count in your view?

He hasn’t done those - he’s not a doctor

Sounds interesting. Although I don’t believe in a god or gods personally I totally get why someone would prefer polytheism and if I had to (hypothetically) choose one I’d choose this, sounds much more palatable. I may even do some reading on it.

But why randomly heal one person but not the next person, and just let them die in agony?

I have asked for examples of what god has done in more recent times (ie not in ‘biblical’ times) that has been good for the people as a whole (so no individual anecdotes), something so we can know that god does good and is good. Not had an answer yet (ever, not just on this thread).

I understand what you say. Perhaps people may appear differently age wise to different individuals according to how they knew them on Earth so that they can recognise them. Only a guess as the Bible is silent on this.

KeepHopeful · 23/04/2025 21:34

People can only look at world events and trends, compare them with Bible prophecy, and conclude that there is no reason why it should not be very soon. Some ppl think the Pope's death is very significant.

Yeah. There's never been a dead Pope, or a war before, so it must be true.

@BunnyLake

I suppose whether or not it's palatable depends to a degree on one's personal tastes/values. Polytheism certainly isn't for everyone (after all, if someone is unconvinced of the existence of deities, then clearly they aren't/shouldn't be a polytheist.)

I think what helps with pagan polytheism is that there's no one specific text that everyone is bound to follow, and that dictates how people are supposed to act, think and believe. There are numerous texts that can/are considered sacred, but they are not understood/adhered to in a fundamentalist, literalist way (i.e. we don't believe that the texts/mythologies about pagan deities are all 100% factually accurate, without error.) We do think there are some truths that can be taken from them, but we take discerning look.

Paganism is very diverse and is essentially a cover-all term for numerous religions and spiritual paths - some even non-theistic, there are pagan atheists.

Another thing I like about polytheism is that (as I saw one polytheist express) "our gods are not jealous gods." It's understood in polytheism that not only do we believe in a multiplicity of deities, but that we can honour and build relationships with more than one - these can be deities from the same pantheon, or deities from different pantheons - and the deities themselves don't mind. Jehovah may desire and insist on exclusive worship of himself alone, but the other gods/goddesses have a more 'chilled' outlook when it comes to this issue.

Judgejudysno1fan · Yesterday 14:24

The quran is full of truth and scientific miracles that are being proved today. Read it.

Yes.

The sky is a giant carpet and at night, the stars are Allah's light shining through the gaps in the weave. Totally scientific, that's me off to the mosque right now!

@SorcererGaheris Thank you for that. One thing I have never liked about monotheism is how vain and egocentric it appears. Demanding you ‘worship’ only them (or else) sounds like the kind of toxic relationship I don’t want to be in.

He does, frequently. I have seen it many times.

Timing, and the number of things currently happening.

Why so selective then

No different from many years Why didn’t it happen during major crisis like World Wars

What things?

There’s always things happening. There’s never not things happening.

@ZoggyStirdust

I know your question is geared towards belief in a monotheistic god, but here's a video which addresses the issue of evil from a polytheist perspective.

Ocean Keltoi discusses the 'problem of evil' from roughly 11:09 to 18.30 and I'd recommend watching if you're interested in seeing how polytheists would come at this matter. I will give an example of a couple of his points, though:

First of all, polytheists traditionally (and mostly still do) hold that while deities have power and influence, they are NOT all-powerful, all-knowing or all-loving, which is how God is understood in the Christian monotheist tradition.

So as a polytheist, I might say that deities are unable to prevent evil - they may not be aware/knowledgeable of all the evil things happening in the world, and even if they are aware of some of it, they may not have the ability to do anything about it. In some cases, deities may not even want to do anything about it (like I said, we - polytheists - don't see the gods/goddesses as all-loving.)

Another suggestion that Ocean Keltoi gives is the 'greater good' theodicy, which argues that the existence of certain kinds of evil allows a greater diversity of good in the world - when someone suffers unjustly, people might rally around to help them, for example. So certain kinds of evil and suffering are necessary in order for there to also be the greatest number of expressions of goodness.

But of course, there are also forms of suffering that are unnecessary for the fulfilment of good actions - Ocean gives the example of "a faun dying alone in a forest" - and then we return to the earlier point that the deities are not omnipotent, omnipresent beings.

A direct quote from Ocean - "Traditional polytheists also hold that the gods are not the only powerful agents, but that there are also malicious forces in the universe. Within Heathenry, there are stories of Jotunn, trolls and other beings that bring great harm to the gods and to humanity...there are stories of the gods in struggle with each other, there are stories of kinds of gods engaging in destructive war against each other. So the problem of unnecessary suffering is easily explained by stating that the gods, while powerful, do not govern every event in the universe, and may not always be in agreement. Therefore, unnecessary suffering, while being frustratingly unnecessary, takes place."

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