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Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

707 replies

ZoggyStirdust · 23/04/2025 16:00

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

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13
BunnyLake · 24/04/2025 19:33

@MistressoftheDarkSide Yes narcissism, egocentricity, vanity, this god presented to us from ‘holy’ books is quite the character. I think it’s because of this deeply unpleasant version of him is why I can’t understand the blind adoration for him. If we knew someone in real life with his characteristics we would be keeping our distance thinking he was an unsavoury character.

Other than someone offering up ‘he gave us Jesus’ no one in the previous thread could name anything he has done in recent times. No one has been able to answer (sensibly) what makes him perfect if his creations (humans and the planet) are not perfect. Free will got wheeled out for humans not being perfect but what about the planet, that was not created perfect even if it sat empty, a deafening silence on that query though.

Puzzled4 · 24/04/2025 19:34

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 19:12

Much of it describes historical events. There is also prophecy, praise and law, but that does not detract from the factual accounts of events.

Yes, there are definitely nods to actual history, but the bible is not a historical document.

KrisAkabusi · 24/04/2025 19:36

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 19:19

You are offered a joy filled life in wonderful company, free from worries or sickness, for ever. Why turn it down?

Because it's not a free gift. It come at a cost, particularly if you're a woman. Or gay.

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 19:36

Tryingtokeepgoing · 24/04/2025 19:28

Because it will be full of Mumsnet’ers arguing until the end of time that other inmates are making too much noise in the garden of Eden, that the vicar definitely didn’t have planning permission for the changes to the vicarage and why does he need such a big house anyway, and that they are sure that archangel Gabriel is claiming benefits they’re not entitled to ;)

It definitely won't be full of cynics and gossips!

Parker231 · 24/04/2025 19:44

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 19:08

The Bible tells us to love God, and to love others as much as ourselves. Christians tend to help people they know, whether by giving practical help, advice, sharing possessions, giving encouragement, or praying for them. A lifestyle of care for others, and worshipping and socialising with other Christians, encourages this and provides more opportunities and contacts.

If somebody goes to a church with a need, there's a good chance that a member or one of their contacts will be able to advise or act for them.

A lot of charitable work is done by Christian individuals and organisations. Overseas missions and missions within their own countries give a lot of help of all kinds, including medical treatment, medicines, food, schools, and projects like water wells.

The first schools, colleges, universities and hospitals were founded by churches, monasteries and convents. Those existing now have generally followed on from the original Christian ideas. Quite a high proportion of medical professionals are Christians.

Throughout history, the Church and monasteries have upheld the Christian values upon which our laws and culture are based.

Have a look at this site:

https://www.byfaith.co.uk/paul200913.htm

You don’t have to be a Christian to help people. DH and I have spent the day repairing cat shelters which are in the village near our holiday home in France. Tomorrow we’ll be collecting cat food donations from a local supermarket. When I worked in the uk we had volunteering days to help local organisations.
We do it like any decent person because we want to and not because it’s expected by a church.

Moonmelodies · 24/04/2025 19:47

driedgrasses · 24/04/2025 16:16

I think it's a shame that these threads inevitably descend into arrogant name calling and unkindness from the atheists. Nobody owes anyone a kindness, but you have to wonder why people think it's okay to take the piss. You have to wonder where it even comes from. Is it necessary? Why does this behavioural pattern occur?

People who believe in unicorns, elves, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster (pbuh) suffer the same abuse - adopt absurd beliefs and ridicule is sure to follow.

Uricon2 · 24/04/2025 19:49

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 19:36

It definitely won't be full of cynics and gossips!

Heaven.org (TM) filled with "people I personally approve of".

I'm a Christian, I believe in God, but the certainty of knowledge of the mind of God that so many believers of all possible complexions espouse does my head in. What people who don't believe make of it I can well imagine.

More concentration on the teachings of Jesus and less about Creation or the Apocalypse would serve all of us well.

Parker231 · 24/04/2025 20:25

Uricon2 · 24/04/2025 19:49

Heaven.org (TM) filled with "people I personally approve of".

I'm a Christian, I believe in God, but the certainty of knowledge of the mind of God that so many believers of all possible complexions espouse does my head in. What people who don't believe make of it I can well imagine.

More concentration on the teachings of Jesus and less about Creation or the Apocalypse would serve all of us well.

Teaching us what?

Uricon2 · 24/04/2025 20:41

Parker231 · 24/04/2025 20:25

Teaching us what?

Loving others as yourself, absence of hypocrisy, absence of judgement of those who are different, prioritising those who are for any reason weaker than you. I know lots of atheists and agnostics who manage that perfectly well but I believe and my comment is aimed at people who also believe but prioritise other stuff, like whether there were dinosaurs or not (there were) or hypothetical discussion about the end of days.

Parker231 · 24/04/2025 20:54

Uricon2 · 24/04/2025 20:41

Loving others as yourself, absence of hypocrisy, absence of judgement of those who are different, prioritising those who are for any reason weaker than you. I know lots of atheists and agnostics who manage that perfectly well but I believe and my comment is aimed at people who also believe but prioritise other stuff, like whether there were dinosaurs or not (there were) or hypothetical discussion about the end of days.

Being a decent human being isn’t the prerogative of those who believe. There are good Christians and bad atheists and vice versa.

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 20:58

Parker231 · 24/04/2025 19:44

You don’t have to be a Christian to help people. DH and I have spent the day repairing cat shelters which are in the village near our holiday home in France. Tomorrow we’ll be collecting cat food donations from a local supermarket. When I worked in the uk we had volunteering days to help local organisations.
We do it like any decent person because we want to and not because it’s expected by a church.

I fully agree that Christians have no monopoly on good works! I'm saying that they tend to do more charity work and give more personal help to others. Surveys also find that they give much more money to charity.

Parker231 · 24/04/2025 21:00

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 20:58

I fully agree that Christians have no monopoly on good works! I'm saying that they tend to do more charity work and give more personal help to others. Surveys also find that they give much more money to charity.

Because it’s dictated to them by their church as an expectation rather than free will.,

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 21:02

Parker231 · 24/04/2025 21:00

Because it’s dictated to them by their church as an expectation rather than free will.,

I think mainly free will, with encouragement and leadership from churches or ministries.

BadahdahdahImLovingIt · 24/04/2025 21:02

Fantastic thread. I'm a Christian, the worst type in fact, a Roman Catholic. I'm not obliged to believe in creationism so I don't. Science is wonderful and I've met the Pope's astronomer Br Guy who is doing amazing work and we had a nice chat about dark matter and all the stuff we don't know about yet. There's a wonderful amount that we don't know and we may never understand it all. That allows me the headspace for belief in God.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 24/04/2025 21:17

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 20:58

I fully agree that Christians have no monopoly on good works! I'm saying that they tend to do more charity work and give more personal help to others. Surveys also find that they give much more money to charity.

This is a much more interesting debate than creationism :)

On the charity front I thought Muslims were more generous, in the UK least, and the Christian church goers charitableness is exaggerated by the fact the church itself is a charity so donations to it count as charitable donations, which is a bit self fulfilling and doesn’t necessarily help the wider society. But I could be wrong.

I am of the view that most people, whether they are religious or not, live to similar values and behaviours - helping others, supporting their community (however that is defined) and doing what’s ‘right’ . They are, for the most part, innate behaviours in human dna. But there are always some that don’t follow the rules. So the church has taken that and codified it, with some defined rules, and ‘penalties / threats’ for those that don’t live by the rules. As ever, the rules have to be targeted at the lowest common denominator.

But the problem is that then the men (and it always men) who founded these organisations thought it was a good way to elevate and cement their place in society. So when that still doesn’t get 100% compliance the rules get tighter and the threats more draconian. Soon non believers are threatened with eternal damnation to rot in hell for not conforming. And as time goes by what starts as a well meaning organisation has to go further and harder to maintain power, and starts to rot from the core because its purpose then becomes sustaining itself. In the middle ground life goes on as normal, but at the edges there are factions that get very more extreme. But I think that’s about control and power, not true religion.

Much as most people used to make sure their bit of their street was always clean, swept, weeded and tidy. Then the council came along and took responsibility for that, and taxed us. Soon most people didn’t bother, because ‘that’s someone else’s job’, followed by people deliberately choosing to litter. So then the council introduce fines for littering, and a cycle of ever more draconian controls to maintain what did, by and large, work without intervention at all.

Food for thought anyway :)

anytipswelcome · 24/04/2025 21:21

@KeepHopeful

Just FYI surveys show that Muslims give the most money to charity, in the UK anyway.

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 21:29

More teaching definitely! The creation/evolution issue is a rabbit hole because few people have the scientific knowledge and understanding to make a really meaningful contribution.

End Times teaching is essential. Jesus, the New Testament authors and some prophets made it clear that we need to understand what will come, and to be ready.

Being of a Charismatic persuasion, I think that the lack of teaching on the spiritual gifts and the end times is an extremely serious error and a major hindrance to Bible knowledge and willingness to believe. Nobody has the authority to de-emphasise or ignore parts of Scripture that are necessary for the Christian life just because they're not comfortable with them.

Parker231 · 24/04/2025 21:43

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 21:29

More teaching definitely! The creation/evolution issue is a rabbit hole because few people have the scientific knowledge and understanding to make a really meaningful contribution.

End Times teaching is essential. Jesus, the New Testament authors and some prophets made it clear that we need to understand what will come, and to be ready.

Being of a Charismatic persuasion, I think that the lack of teaching on the spiritual gifts and the end times is an extremely serious error and a major hindrance to Bible knowledge and willingness to believe. Nobody has the authority to de-emphasise or ignore parts of Scripture that are necessary for the Christian life just because they're not comfortable with them.

Something for Christians but not relevant for those of us who are atheists. Nothing is going to happen to us so nothing to be ready for.

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 21:46

Parker231 · 24/04/2025 21:43

Something for Christians but not relevant for those of us who are atheists. Nothing is going to happen to us so nothing to be ready for.

What will happen will happen whether you choose to believe it or not.

Parker231 · 24/04/2025 22:01

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 21:46

What will happen will happen whether you choose to believe it or not.

Of course it won’t. My life will continue as it is now. The world isn’t going to end. There’s no reason for anything to happen.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 24/04/2025 22:09

KeepHopeful · 24/04/2025 21:46

What will happen will happen whether you choose to believe it or not.

Isn’t that also the case for you though? And what if there is a good, but out of all the gods and religions to chose you’ve chosen the wrong one and the true one is one of the others? Because surely you don’t think every believer of every other religion is going to end up in your version of heaven?

BadahdahdahImLovingIt · 24/04/2025 22:10

Puzzled4 · 24/04/2025 19:34

Yes, there are definitely nods to actual history, but the bible is not a historical document.

Indeed it's not a document at all as far as I understand it, but a collection of writings, including prayers, poetry and biography, from different ages. I think the historicity of Old Testament may be answered better by a Jewish person as it's essentially their Torah - didn't Moses write a lot of it? Surely a lot of it would have been oral teaching eventually written down? I could be wrong about that. With regards to the New Testament, which is mostly based on the biographies of the four evangelists, I think contemporary non-Christian figures such as Tacitus and Josephus collaborate the events portrayed around the life and death of Jesus, and there has been a huge amount of scholarship on Paul... though I can't remember much of it. I have to look into this again, it's a long time since I've read about it.

Brahumbug · 24/04/2025 22:18

BadahdahdahImLovingIt · 24/04/2025 22:10

Indeed it's not a document at all as far as I understand it, but a collection of writings, including prayers, poetry and biography, from different ages. I think the historicity of Old Testament may be answered better by a Jewish person as it's essentially their Torah - didn't Moses write a lot of it? Surely a lot of it would have been oral teaching eventually written down? I could be wrong about that. With regards to the New Testament, which is mostly based on the biographies of the four evangelists, I think contemporary non-Christian figures such as Tacitus and Josephus collaborate the events portrayed around the life and death of Jesus, and there has been a huge amount of scholarship on Paul... though I can't remember much of it. I have to look into this again, it's a long time since I've read about it.

Jephthah's daughter. Have you ever read the bible? Judges 11

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges%2011&version=NIVj

Bible Gateway passage: Judges 11 - New International Version

Jephthah the Gileadite was a mighty warrior. His father was Gilead; his mother was a prostitute. Gilead’s wife also bore him sons, and when they were grown up, they drove Jephthah away. “You are not going to get any inheritance in our family,” they sai...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges+11&version=NIV

Brahumbug · 24/04/2025 22:20

Sorry about the above post. The quote is from the wrong person. I was writing regarding child sacrifice in the bible!

Brahumbug · 24/04/2025 22:21

BadahdahdahImLovingIt · 24/04/2025 22:10

Indeed it's not a document at all as far as I understand it, but a collection of writings, including prayers, poetry and biography, from different ages. I think the historicity of Old Testament may be answered better by a Jewish person as it's essentially their Torah - didn't Moses write a lot of it? Surely a lot of it would have been oral teaching eventually written down? I could be wrong about that. With regards to the New Testament, which is mostly based on the biographies of the four evangelists, I think contemporary non-Christian figures such as Tacitus and Josephus collaborate the events portrayed around the life and death of Jesus, and there has been a huge amount of scholarship on Paul... though I can't remember much of it. I have to look into this again, it's a long time since I've read about it.

The trouble with the synoptic gospels is that they are anonymous. We have literally know idea who wrote them.

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