Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

[ZoggyStirdust]

Continues from here if anyone wants to

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5318577-to-not-understand-why-christians-think-jesus-died-for-our-sins?page=40&reply=143772264

No one keeps all of God's rules, Christians and non Christians alike. That's why God sent Jesus to die for us, which I think was the question of the original thread!

There wasn’t a global flood. Off the back of the last ice age, when sea levels started to rise, there many epic floods across the globe, many of which are still referenced in cultural legends and lore. But there very clearly was no global flood, with Noah and ark of animals.

Animals can’t talk - fact. They are animals not humans.

The only way to get rid of sin completely would be to get rid of people. I don't understand all of God's ways- if I did he wouldn't be God!

Yes, you are right animals can't talk. The donkey talking was a miracle. God can do impossible things. The snake wasn't really a snake it was the devil in disguise.

Yes, through evolution, over millions of billions years, until very recently when the modern human took an evolutionary turn away from our last primate ancestor about 7 million years ago, although as humans we are still part of the great ape family.

I have posted references on here which show the scientific evidence for the flood.

Sin doesn’t exist - it’s just a religious concept to try and make people behave a particular way.

Basically god is cruel, doesn’t help anyone, is selfish but expects to be worshipped - just a delightful character!

What's rvol?

Sin is just another word for doing something bad/wrong. Surely you agree some things are wrong? If there's no sin, then rape and murder are ok.

A donkey cannot talk - speak to a vet they will confirm this to you. A snake can’t disguise itself as anything.

There is right and wrong. You don’t need a religious faith to know the difference. When you die we are all treated the same - death is a great leveller.

Jesus didn’t die for us . He was convicted of breaking laws and killed.

This still doesn’t change the fact that bible is categorically not a historical document, especially the old testament with its fantastical stories. No academic or real historian would say that the bible is an actual historical document.

Nobody has asked him to intervene in ‘every sin’.

I’ve asked why he specifically doesn’t intervene when children who believe in him wholeheartedly pray to him begging to stop being raped.

I do respect you saying you don’t know the answer and appreciate you being honest about that.

I simply cannot fathom worshipping a god who watches children being raped, has the ability to save them if they beg him for help and chooses not to… while apparently answering some other prayers.

If such a god exists, he is a maniac.

”Life doesn’t spontaneously appear from nothing” would appear to be at odds with the creationist view that there was no life and that suddenly there was, That’s exactly what they claim. The very definition of spontaneous!

Meanwhile, in the evolutionary world the Big Bang laid the foundations of the universe and the building blocks of matter like hydrogen and helium around 14 billion years ago..and it’s taken since then for the universe, earth and the life on it as we know it to evolve. The Big Bang was the expansion of the universe faster than the speed of light. The energy for that came from the space time continuum. Measurements, observations and experiments have validated the timeline - because the universe is still expanding and the rate of change can be measured, and extrapolated backwards, and forwards. In terms of life, the first signs can be traced to these early environments, with the development of microscopic organisms and bacteria in the chemical soup of elements. We are all, ultimately, a combination of elements.

But in the creationist world it happened a couple of thousand years ago just ‘because’.

This thread was more interesting and engaging when it was about mainstream faith and not the extreme views of creationism, which disengages so many people. The vast majority of those with faith are not science deniers, and we are all are able to have interesting and engaging debates whether we have faith or not.

But, as with all groups, at the extreme there’s comes a point when I am reminded of the Mark Twain quote…”Never argue with a stupid person; they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” Creationists have backed themselves into a corner, and so keep on arguing their contradictory case. If there were facts to support their position there would be no arguing. The debates could come to a close. But there aren’t.

So for as long as they take the view that if you say it often enough and loud enough it will become the truth despite all evidence to the contrary, which to be fair, for a brief moment in time worked for Trump until the pack of cards came tumbling down, they are destined to, ultimately, be ignored.

No, there was never a global flood that covered the entire earth. That’s a biblical myth, and not an actual truth. There were localised floods, throughout the planet, but no a global flood.

That was a typo and I accidentally pressed post before I finished writing the response. Apologies.

No, they really don’t. At best they support evidence of a local flood. But the timeframe has been misrepresented to fit the story and is out by at least 10,000, if not hundreds of thousands of years. There is absolutely no evidence to support a global flood at all.

If God made the world he isn't confined by it

This also means that God would have been perfectly able to create humanity via evolution and not within the confines of a creation myth based at least in part on a much older one, both written by people who thought the earth was flat. When you have a Pope saying (many years ago, not Francis) that "Evolution is more than a theory" it is perhaps time to take stock. I believe in God but I also know that the Bible is an incredibly complex thing that evolved from its time and place.

It is perhaps helpful to think of the Hebrew Bible by its proper name, the Tanakh, a shortening of "Law, Prophets, Writings". It is not a linear history and doesn't actually pretend to be.

The Bible tells us to love God, and to love others as much as ourselves. Christians tend to help people they know, whether by giving practical help, advice, sharing possessions, giving encouragement, or praying for them. A lifestyle of care for others, and worshipping and socialising with other Christians, encourages this and provides more opportunities and contacts.

If somebody goes to a church with a need, there's a good chance that a member or one of their contacts will be able to advise or act for them.

A lot of charitable work is done by Christian individuals and organisations. Overseas missions and missions within their own countries give a lot of help of all kinds, including medical treatment, medicines, food, schools, and projects like water wells.

The first schools, colleges, universities and hospitals were founded by churches, monasteries and convents. Those existing now have generally followed on from the original Christian ideas. Quite a high proportion of medical professionals are Christians.

Throughout history, the Church and monasteries have upheld the Christian values upon which our laws and culture are based.

Have a look at this site:

https://www.byfaith.co.uk/paul200913.htm

Much of it describes historical events. There is also prophecy, praise and law, but that does not detract from the factual accounts of events.

You are offered a joy filled life in wonderful company, free from worries or sickness, for ever. Why turn it down?

Have been reading with interest.

One point - a poster upthread said they trust the word of God because he was there at the creation of the world. Can we back up a minute? The "words of God" came through men's mouths once they'd gotten past living in caves, developed language and I believe the earliest language was Sumerian?

We do have a bit of a gap in the evolution of mankind as we know it. We also have references to the Nephilim etc and the concept of the Annunaki. Some are convinced we are the product of alien intervention, and were used as slaves to serve them.

I've come across the idea that fossils, dinosaurs and anything that contradicts the creation story is "God" testing our faith. Also, reading about whoever it was almost having to sacrifice his son to prove his faith leads me all the time to the question:

Why would anyone that allegedly loves us test us in such hideous, gas-lighting ways? It's pure narcissism, no?

Because it will be full of Mumsnet’ers arguing until the end of time that other inmates are making too much noise in the garden of Eden, that the vicar definitely didn’t have planning permission for the changes to the vicarage and why does he need such a big house anyway, and that they are sure that archangel Gabriel is claiming benefits they’re not entitled to ;)