AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

We can tell.
You know there are men who dress as women who do actually respect our spaces?. They have also been vilified by the TRA’s!

But no one is questioning their existence.

I mean, large numbers of them behaved so appalingly over the weekend that we can't fail to notice their existence.

Personally, I suspect you can't always tell a TM. But I've always been very aware when I've clocked a TW in my presence.

Hpwever, let's just imagine that I have washed my hands next to a woman at the sink who has actually been an extremely well passing TW, it doesn't matter. I haven't been aware so they clearly havent behaved in a way which would cause concern.

The problems arose because absolutely any male could.get into any women's spaces simply by saying he was a woman and then do what the hell he liked. And brag about it. And behave threateningly towards any woman/person who questioned him.

And all the rhetoric around, "Well if someome is behaving badly, there are already laws to address that. Just use those," was unhelpful. Unfortunately a) by then it was too late for the victim and b) organisations were still asking the women to leave if they were uncomfortable with a man's behaviour. Those laws weren't being applied when the perpetrator was a TW because no one really knew what to do, whose 'rights' to prioritse and they all knew how aggressive violent, unlawfully could be. So it was easier to remove the women.

The ruling has simply clarified the law and now prioritises women in wen's spaces rather than men.

Not sure what that has to do with what I said.

I'm not talking about the specifics of medical care, or toilets, or anything- I was simply challenging the people on all the trans threads who say "they can always tell". I am saying, it is impossible to know that.

Yes Men are the problem, so we implement safeguards.

We CRB check for certain job roles and we provide sex segregated spaces and services. Those sex segregated spaces exclude all men, even the ones who wear pretty skirts, give themselves a feminine name or say that they are women, because we cannot know if the man under the skirt/behind the name is a good man or a bad man, we just know that statistically he is more likely to harm a woman than a woman is, and that physically if he chose to do it he is more likely to cause serious damage.

Beyond the safety aspects, there are also privacy, dignity and religious considerations.

i am not at all religious, i am however modest, i dislike getting undressed infront of women who are not part of my immediate family and i have never been undressed in front of any man except my husband. That is my choice to make, no man gets to wander into the gym changing room and take that decision away from me. I’ve already had to cancel my Nuffield membership and move to another gym because the female changing room has no cubicles and allows self ID, I now use the council facility which has 1 cubicle in the Women’s changing room and a large open plan space, if the cubicle is busy I have to wait because they also allow self ID so I cannot guarantee that the other ‘Women’ using the changing room will actually be Women. I have to be very watchful because unfortunately the cubicle has a gap at the top and bottom and they’ve had reports in the wet-side changing village for the attached pool which is unisex of men putting phones under the doors. It means that 90% of the time I choose to make my day more inconvenient by going home after the gym and getting showered and changed there then going back out rather than being able to build it into my trip. For the 10% where I have to use the changing room I’m on alert constantly.

If I don’t wax my moustache I look like Tom Selleck.
I suspect you're exaggerating but that's really made me laugh.

If they’re moving through society so undetected then why do they need the right to enter women’s spaces?

But HOW can you tell?

Using crude stereotypes of men, voices and stance and broadness of shoulder etc etc... but unless you have asked EVERY SINGLE WOMAN you have EVER MET in your entire life to see their birth certificate you have certainly walked past and met many trans women who pass and not realised.

So no, you can't always tell.

What is the double standard?

Exactly this. And if you have to have an operation, you can recover on a single sex ward. And if you get raped, god forbid, you can refuse a male counsellor/doctor and you can attend a women-only support group. And if you have to have a strip search, you can specify it be performed by someone of your own sex. And if you get sent to prison, you won’t be sharing a cell with a bloke in a wig called Barbara. And if you compete in a sport, you won’t miss out on a medal because a mediocre man decided he’d do better in the women’s league. And that’s the ballgame, folks, if you’ll forgive my little pun.

It’s not about toilets. It was never about toilets - it’s largely transwomen who try to make it about toilets because like many other male animals, they feel the need to piss anywhere they want in an attempt to mark their territory. If they really were women, they’d never have tried to force their way into our safe spaces in the first place.

As a transman I think third spaces is the best thing here. There's literally an app for people to check toilets in their area and before I was diagnosed with my disability, I used that to find unisex toilets before I went anywhere.

You cannot tell ALL transmen are women. My Iceland delivery driver is trans and he was delivering to us for months before I knew - and only then because he mentioned it whilst we were chatting. I wouldn't have known otherwise - I however, do not "pass". I am, admittedly, a short fat lady with a beard.

Trans penis's aren't real penis's, no. They're either an arm or a thigh. They cannot get a woman pregnant, but they could be used to SA someone and therefore my stance is and will always be third spaces only - no victim should have to share their space with someone who has the possibility of SA them, especially if they do indeed pass.

There's a good AMA started by a transman about the SC ruling @Akiddleydiveytoo. If you haven't already done so, I would suggest that you read it.

But, yes, as CharlotteBakewell says.

The quiet respectful TW who just want to get on with their lives and don't want to male women feel uncomfortable just aren't using women's spaces in the first place.

Plenty of them have come out since the ruling to say that they certainly never used the women's and never had any issues in the men's.

Some men are also calling out for TW to be encouraged to feel safe in the men's, too.

Seems like it's not so much a problem as the TRAs and some women believed after all!

Sadly, I can tell. The softer faces smaller hands, shorter trunks, the longer chin to ear angle of the skull.

When I see pictures of transmen, all I feel is a deep sadness that some women have been led to believe that testosterone and body harm will fix their problems. Feminism is free and painless for women, but they were sold a lie, a false bill of goods.

I see a photo of damaged women.

Trans men get bottom surgery, they technically do have willies post op. It may not hold a full erection, but nonetheless they have ways and means. Google it!

Sorry but it is absolute cobblers to claim that most or even many trans people pass. Scientific studies have demonstrated that sex is the only characteristic that humans are almost always correct about if asked to determine in a stranger, without needing to ask anyone to remove their clothes. Of course gender-nonconformity has existed for centuries but this nonsense that sex isn’t real or binary is extremely new. 18th C Mollies were not claiming to be women. You are using a straw man argument: no one is saying that men can’t wear dresses. It just makes them a man in a dress, not a woman.

"Butch" women (some of whom are Lesbian) have always quite rightly come into Women's spaces. Since Forever. No problems whatsoever as far as I can recall in my nearly 70 years.

In the Cross Dressing 80's none of the men came into Women's spaces no matter what they wore or how much make-up they used. However he looked Boy George went in the men's loos - because he knew he was still a Man. He knew his sexual preference didn't change his sex. He didn't claim to be a heterosexual woman trapped in the body of a man!

Stonewall are 100% to blame for spreading the delusion that humans can change their Sex. You can't. Ever.

I don't know if this is right or wrong, but transmen aren't an issue because they aren't a threat to men. In fact they're putting themselves in a vulnerable position by using the mens toilets so it's fine for them to keep on using the mens because it's their own choice. Women are the vulnerable ones when transwomen use the women's toilets. It's a completely different dynamic and should be treated as such.

Trying to remember all the threads asking how we can better include people with disabilities, or trauma or language barriers or low earners in designing public spaces.

Can you imagine all this time, resources and effort put into asking how society should manage inclusion for ALL the protected characteristics and not just the Most Special / Self-Inflicted one?

We can…

They are not disabled-only loos. They are accessible loos.

This is such a disingenious argument.

A) invisible disabilities exist so no one should be questioning anyone about their requirement to use an accessible loo.

B) trans are so rare your never to counter one in a women’s bathroom; yet simultaneously disabled loos everywhere will be noticeably chock a block.

Honestly completely ridiculous.

Absolutely rubbish. I have researched and seen the photos, have read of the horrific side effects.

They certainly do not end up with "willies". They end up with a useless tube of flesh that cannot function as a penis in any meaningful way. Its just "for show".

Please don't peddle such nonsense.

'trans men' (damaged women) need intensive therapy and community care and I welcome them in any setting.

Post deleted as the text I wanted to quote wouldn't show up.

I am talking about the specifics of medical care. are you suggesting that trans carers will lie about their sex and sexually assault patients by deceit? why otherwise would anyone's ability to tell be relevant?

"Trans activists are now focusing solely on toilets because it’s easier emotional blackmail to those unaware of the issues, as opposed to trying to justify sports, prisons, health care, rape centres etc. But as they do so, they’re missing the point. Will some trans women continue to use women’s toilets? Yes. And for those very few who pass, this will probably go by unnoticed."

Good quote from Josh Howie on X.