AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

Trump has nothing to do with the Communist Party of GB but they oppose self-id “transwomen are women” too. This is not a right/left issue.

Women are MOST likely to be assaulted in their own homes by an intimate partner. All this attention on trans-women is detracting from the real threat - cis men.

www.npcc.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/our-work/vawg/violence-against-women-and-girls---strategic-threat-risk-assessment-2023.pdf

Also known as men!
Just because I am most likely to be assaulted by my husband doesnt mean I have to share my ward with men, does it?

LOL. It’s doesn’t matter what they look like. It’s not about appearances and it’s not about toilets. It’s so much more than that.

No, @VivienneDelacroix, real threat is men. No need for cis or transwoman or any other qualifier. MEN.

It’s not though. The level of risk and threat is fundamentally different.

The self ID fuckery meant that predators could act like a fox in a hen house. Can’t you see why things needed to change! Don’t wear blinkers ffs!

That is because it is considerably easier for men who are utterly determined to transgress women's boundaries to shriek 'we just want to pee!!!' than admit that eroding the single sex exemptions in the EQA2010, as lobbying groups have made it their business to do, means that rape survivors were almost denied the right to request a female medical examiner (Forensic Medical Examiners Bill Scotland - six words amendment) or are told to 'reframe their trauma' as they are turned away from rape crisis services (ERCC) or female prisoners are locked up with violent male sex offenders on the basis of self id (Scottish Prison Service).

We're told that we're evil for making men who identify as women fearful and vulnerable through this judgement. They didn't give a shiny shit about the women in the situations above though.

*women

Wasn’t there an identical thread last week?

So called trans men are women. They are welcome in
women’s spaces, as they are women.

They look and move like women and you can spot them a mile off, even those with facial hair or bulked up with testosterone.

Be more original with your scaremongering.

Exactly. TRAs have been very succesful in making this about toilets.
But ask anyone if they are ok with their 80 year old mum being bathed by a transwoman? Resounding no.

What do transmen think should 'happen with them'? Because I've not seen any of them speak. Every article and news item has featured transwomen. Does anyone know what transmen are saying about what toilets they will use, whether this will be a change in their behaviour, and if they see it as problematic for them?

Apologies not read the whole thread so someone may have said this already.

if someone is a trans man like you’re describing, ie a woman, but they ‘pass’ as a man, presumably they also ‘believe’ they are a man, then they will insist on continuing to use the men’s toilets as they have been doing. Incorrectly maybe but that’s what’s been happening. If they have gone through surgery and take meds/hormones I would assume they feel pretty strongly about being a man.
So they will continue to use men’s facilities and whatever risk they face from men is on them. I don’t believe they will all of a sudden switch to using the women’s where, admittedly, they may get questioned or looked at twice (I’ve only known trans men who still look like women so I haven’t seen, or noticed I accept, the ones that pass).
But the key still applies; women’s spaces are just for women, however they present.
if men are unhappy with women coming into their spaces, well it’s on them to campaign and protest, so far they haven’t.
Woman have worked to regain their own spaces, so we are entitled to them again, as we always should have been. Men out.

If you haven’t sent the peanut analogy yet, it’s worth googling. To be nut-free, means no nuts. Doesn’t matter how those nuts present, it’s still no nuts.

This isn't really an AIBU so I haven't voted because of course it isn't unreasonable for you to ask a question.
Just to correct something in your post though: "... there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces." Trans women (biological males) have never had the right to access female only spaces and the Supreme Court ruling simply clarifies this.
Now to answer your question. Following the SC judgment, I would expect that TRAs would lobby for single-gender spaces for trans men and trans women, separate and distinct from male and female single-sex spaces (public loos, changing rooms, etc). In fact, it's a pity they haven't been doing this already given it will likely take years to achieve (the length of time it's taken for organisations to reliably provide specific facilities for disabled people's needs is an example of this).
Given that 87-96% of transsexuals do not undergo radical GA surgery (i.e. including genitalia), I would have thought the chance of encountering a trans man (biological female) in a female WC with their surgically constructed penis out would be vanishingly rare (particularly given that female loos have cubicles).
It's unfortunate that transsexuals feel "forced" to use the facilities that align with their sex, however, until trans men and trans women have their own facilities, this is the reality they need to deal with (as do we all).
Finally, I don't believe the SC ruling will lead to unisex/gender-neutral facilities as this separation has been culturally embedded in UK society for eons. In fact, the only "shared" facilities I've experienced is, for example, a single loo in a cafe where both sexes use the same loo but, crucially, not at the same time.

Those who are so sure they can "always tell", unless you've personally checked the genitals of every person you've ever met against your assumption, how on earth do you know?

Trans people have existed for centuries, and have been moving through society mostly unnoticed for the majority of that time.

I definitely can't always tell
But now I can ask for same sex intimate care, yes?

What's the difference? Be specific?

a woman trespassing in a men-only space is primarily a creep, but not a threat. a man trespassing in a women-only space is a creep, but primarily a threat.

Wish people would knock it off with the cis crap.

Is this about toilets again? Why is it always about toilets?

we trust in medical carers not to lie about their sex. are you suggesting that trans identified carers will lie about their sex to vulnerable patients?

Why 'sigh'?

I agree.

All coming out arguing that women shouldn't have privacy and dignity provided by the Equality Act contrary to the Ruling of the Highest Court of the Land.

You couldn't make it up.

Despite what some posters are suggesting women and girls have been harmed by men who identify as trans women in women's single sex toilets. 2 girls were sexually assaulted by Katie Dolotowski in a Morrisons toilet. Cameras have been hidden and trans women have filmed themselves masturbating whilst sitting in a cubicle next to women peeing and posted it on social media.

There are a subset of men who identify as trans women who are autogynophile which means being seen and validated as a woman is a fetish. For them being in women's toilets uses women as their fetish.

So that's why toilets are so important and that is why 100s of posts are coming on here defending the rights of males to be where the Supreme Court has determined they shouldn't be.

I wonder how many men will stop identifying as trans when they can no longer get a kick out of it? Perhaps that's what they mean by trans erasure.

If the trans men (biological females) in this photo walked in and out of a female loo, in silence with their shirts on, I probably wouldn't. If they walked into a communal changing room and got changed in full view, however, recognition would be much more likely due to their chest scarring.
Personally, I don't think you can always tell based on appearance alone (although I'm surprised how often my suspicions have been correct when I've seen trans people on TV) - unfortunately, the voice is almost always the major giveaway.

I can only conclude that it's because some men who identify as trans women REALLY want to go into women's toilets.

And this is what they are trying to do to undermine the Supreme Court decision.

The problem is that we've seen these tactics before. They won't work.

There is no statistical evidence to support any risk to any woman in spaces like changing rooms and toilets, from trans women, men pretending to be trans women

Of course there is statistical evidence. Every woman that is attacked by a trans woman or men pretending to be a trans woman is a statistic.

How do you know think statistics are formed?