AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

Exactly. I can search for PLENTY of images, which quite frankly are the stuff of nightmares, of men who believe that putting on a cheap nylon wig, fetish gear and a bit of lippy (not forgetting the flesh coloured fake breast plate) makes them pass as a woman! There are so many I could share on here, all in the name of self fucking ID!

FFS, common sense!

The few transmen and transwomen who have undergone a full surgical ‘transformation’ and pass for the other sex will likely continue to use the bathrooms of this sex, and nobody will know.

However, the ones who just wanted to be able to say ‘I am a woman’ despite very clearly not being one will now (hopefully) have to use the men’s.
No penis in women-only spaces. Why is it so hard to understand?
(and obviously same for women so desperate to use the men’s, even though I doubt there are many)

Chaz Bono has a penis, or a semblance of one perhaps.
Most transmen don't, I would wager. And have not been taking testosterone for years.
Why on earth should we be framing policy for Chaz Bono?

The Supreme Court ruling wasn't about who can use what toilet. It was to protect women and women only spaces. The same thing that women have fought to protect for however many tens/hundreds of years. It's not taking a step back, it's moving forward and showing women that they do actually matter, their rights are still important.

Why are trans women making it all about toilets anyway?

LOL. Many, many trans men absolutely do not look like or move like women, and will have had surgery that has constructed something which looks very much like a penis and testicles. You only notice the ones that do still look like women. You don't notice the ones who look like men because - newsflash - they look like men.

I work with a trans man. His team mates knew he was trans, but nobody in my department did until he mentioned it in a ED&I workshop where it was relevant. He is around 5'10", a body builder, has a full beard and a deep voice. He definitely doesn't 'move like a woman' and he certainly doesn't look like one.

I also have a friend, not trans, who is a very androgynous-looking lesbian. She is regularly mistaken for a man, and she isn't particularly tall, isn't especially well-built and doesn't have any facial hair. She has been confronted angrily by other women in women's toilets on several occasions because they think she's a man. Fortunately, she's an ex-Army officer and not easily intimidated, but she has been physically shoved by women in pub toilets before and been publicly stopped by a security guard in front of loads of people when trying to go into the loos at our local shopping centre. If people aren't going to accept that an androgynous looking woman is a woman, they are not going to accept the large percentage of trans men who look a hell of a lot more like men that she does.

The problem with using accessible toilets is that physically disabled people need to use them and are already annoyed by baby changing.

Can you imagine the conversation when someone inevitably questions why the (trans) person is using the disabled loo when they 'don't look disabled'.

Ask one, I am sure they will take it well

A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis.

No, a transman won't have a penis. They'd have a prosthesis, or a roll of skin taken from their arm or thigh - and not something that could harm a woman.

There isn't much violence (physical or sexual) towards women by transmen; it can be quite the reverse with transwomen, who are still men and generally do retain their penis (80% elect not to have their penis removed). Rates of sexual offending by transwomen are the same as by men.

You know a LOT of Transmen and masculine looking women who have been verbally abused for "looking like men" don't you
Lucky for you you have so many real life examples to illustrate your point

Some men can experience erectile dysfunction and a loss of libido if they take androgen blockers and oestrogen.

Unfortunately, the ones who do it for purely fetishistic reasons are unlikely to take them for that reason.

Becoming sexually aroused and able to have a wank is a large part of it for those men.

However, the risk of rape is not the only reason that men are not allowed in female spaces. And this is very important to remember.

It doesn't matter how any erections a man fails to have, he is not a woman.

I’m surprised a photo of Buck Angel hasn’t made an appearance yet

I also have a friend, not trans, who is a very androgynous-looking lesbian. She is regularly mistaken for a man, and she isn't particularly tall, isn't especially well-built and doesn't have any facial hair. She has been confronted angrily by other women in women's toilets on several occasions because they think she's a man.

This is the result of transactivists insisting that obvious men, who "identify" as women (but who make little or no bodily modification - see them saying "extending the definition of woman' to include male-bodied full-bearded men) , should use the women's toilets.

The usual social boundaries of sex segregated spaces (lavatories, changing rooms) have been broken down.

Guess who suffers? Yes, women.

I believe we should have unisex toilets where all can have privacy. I find it abhorrent to think of trans people of either gender finding themselves in an uncomfortable position; I am 63 and have never felt threatened by a trans person in any situation. IMHO this whole debate smacks of 'culture war' and Trumpery and I hate it.

@SaveMeFromHumanity Thank you for your answer.

The issue has come about due to the acceptance of men self identifying as women.

They are for all intents and purposes men and should therefore be in the mens toilets.

If a biological woman self identifies as man then she will be able to use the woman's toilets. Tbh I doubt many men would care if they choose to use the men's toilets as they don't pose the same danger to men as self identifying trans 'women' do to women and girls.

If aan has had their penis removed then they are free to use the women's toilets.

And it's not all just about the loos.

Sometimes, it's just about women being able to meet and organise themselves without men and without some bloke crying about it and spoiling for them by claiming he wants to join in and he wants to be a woman too and it isn't fair!

Are you ok with transwomen in NHS wards, refuges and prisons? Or sports?

Womens spaces have never been about Trumpery.

There are so many ‘captured’ transmaidens on this thread. One day you will see the light, or maybe not, a bit like the flat earth lot!

Because they know that demanding to be let into women’s sports, prisons, and refuges, or that they must be allowed to conduct intimate examinations of women, doesn’t look quite so reasonable in the public eye as “but we just want to go to the toilet”.

For the millionth time of asking, I don’t care about sharing a single sex space with a transman because they are FEMALE.

What this vacuous movement of narcissists never manages to understand that no one cares what you look like. They care about biological reality. I could not give a toss if a transwoman looks like a woman (NB they never do) because they’re wearing a dress and have fake breasts. They are not a woman. Equally, a transman with a beard - who cares? If I don’t wax my moustache I look like Tom Selleck. Doesn’t make me a bloke.

@ItGhoul do you think the way your friend has been treated in the women’s toilets (which is appalling and wrong) has anything to do with a sense that the behavioural contract between the sexes has generally been broken is respect of safe single sex spaces ?

Before Self ID you could pretty much guarantee that anyone in a womens space had a right to be there or was super low risk (the long term/ GRC holding TW) so the fear reaction level was very low = safe space for those in it because of those in it.

But then that was no longer the case due to the push for Self ID and those who exploited the situation so the risk/challenge of being in single sex spaces was heightened. Single sex spaces were no longer ‘safe’ so fear reactions become more common.

I wonder if there’s any research that’s credible on the behaviour changes of women in formerly single sex spaces

I might get " It's not about toilets" put on a teeshirt.

I don't care. Not my problem. If some women want to take hormones, have surgery, grow a beard and pretend to be a man, then the consequences of that are their problem and they should sort it out like the bigly manly men they claim to be.

It's amazing how many giant (5'10!!!) muscular manly transmen there are in anecdotes but weirdly none that can be named and called on as spokespeople.

It's funny how women who identify as men only come into the equation when it's some kind of got ya moment...ooo what you going to do now 🤔

No one cared about them before, all about the TIMs

TBH women who identify as men pass far better than men who identify as women and the men are the dangerous one to us women.

I believe we should have unisex toilets where all can have privacy. I find it abhorrent to think of trans people of either gender finding themselves in an uncomfortable position; I am 63 and have never felt threatened by a trans person in any situation. IMHO this whole debate smacks of 'culture war' and Trumpery and I hate it

What about if you're in hospital and have ticked the box for a female HCP and a gruff man turns up in a dress? And what if you feel uncomfortable receiving intimate care from him because you're feeling vulnerable? And what about when you apologise and say, "Oh I'm sorry, I asked for a woman," he relies, "I am a woman," and then what if the hospital cancel your treatment/procedure because they care more about his feelings than yours?

Because that's happened in the NHS.

This is not just about toilets and it's not just about whether TW are a tangible 'threat'.

It's about women being able to advocate for themselves within the parameters of reality.