AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

This is about toilets AGAIN isn't it

There is more to this judgement than toilets trans men will now have their maternity rights protected too before they technically did but a company could refuse because you know they are a man and men don't have the right to anything but paternity leave

Maybe look into that

I've worked with a lot of transmen - there is a group of about 50 who meet in my town, so there definitely aren't only 'three in the country'!!

They pass amazingly well. Some you would think are gay because they have some feminine traits. Some seem a bit 'awkward'. Most look younger that their age. But you wouldn't look twice.

Personally I'd say 9/10 transmen "pass" but only maybe 1/10 transwomen.

Feminine traits are largely obliterated with beards and testosterone and there's a wider range of 'acceptable' male behaviours/presentation which includes a lot of quite feminine/camp/softly spoken speech and actions. That's not the same for transwomen, unfortunately, and most overplay the 'feminine' stereotype (stockings seems to always come up...).

ALL people have rights here in The UK.

My experience of being a woman has always come from the stance that I am prey. I grew up in the 80s and 90s and it’s only since I became fat and middle-aged that the harassment from men has lessened.

I realise that not all women live in fear of men but we are all raised to be wary and it’s culturally recognised that we are at risk of attack from them. This is why we have Ask for Ani at chemists and the codes we can use at bars and restaurants to keep us safe, why we’re warned to stick with our friends and not walk home alone after a night out.

This fear is inherent in me due to lived experience and past and current cultural standards. A man in a space that is private, where I am vulnerable, engenders the fear response in me and in many women. We need these safe spaces because women are vulnerable to attack from men.

If you do not look like a man, you will not make me feel unsafe in a private space. I suspect TW who “pass” will continue to use women’s spaces to stay safe. I hope TM who “pass” remain safe using male toilets and changing rooms if they choose to, and that the ruling does not create danger for them. No one is standing guard checking genitalia and barring entry to these places. A TM who does pass can create fear in women in a private space but there will be an understanding of this having lived as a woman previously so they’ll make their choice accordingly.

If you are a TW who doesn’t pass, you can invoke fear in spaces where women are vulnerable and undressed. I realise that TW are also vulnerable to physical attacks by men but it seems that we’re putting a sticking plaster over the real issue. We really need to address the deeper issue of male violence.

Look at the statistics of how many women die at the hands of men each year. Why is this not addressed? Why do we bend ourselves around this culture and thereby condone it?

As this issue is now affecting men themselves, perhaps something will finally be done about it?

OK. But we can't pick and choose like that. Or to suit individual understandings or opinions.

You might be unconvinced about toilets but, others aren't and the existing law is very clear.

Either we have single sex spaces or we don't.

No one is obliged to provide single-sex spaces but, where they do, they must be single sex.

And that sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

There is already legislation around providing unisex toilets so that can be done. It already exists.

And, in the words of the great Mr Spock, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."

I think this is quite tricky.

Those who identify as trans men often have increased muscle profile due to the artificial testosterone as well as facial hair. So some will be at the stronger end of women's strength - not sure how far as they can't compete in strength sports due to the artificial T.

So.. are they more likely to be able to hurt me? That's what i'm looking at - but without evidence it seems they are within the female profile so dependent on other factors - age, height etc. I believe there is a small effect on increased aggression with artificial T in women, much smaller than in men, but it could be significant.

Then you come to visuals - someone like Buck angel is going to be surprising in the ladies, even though they are female.

I think there is an argument for some third space availability (or fourth space if we keep disability access toilets for those with disabilities) - this will be dependent on assessed need/ reasonableness - so in a large organisation/service will be reasonable - in a small one, not so much - but a small organisation may already be providing one or two mixed sex toilets.

Those who identify as trans men often have increased muscle profile due to the artificial testosterone as well as facial hair. So some will be at the stronger end of women's strength - not sure how far as they can't compete in strength sports due to the artificial T.

If you look at the results of the East German female athletes on T from the 80s they outperformed other female athletes but were still not near the men's results.

@spannasaurus Thanks for that - were those athletes across all categories?
Did they compete in strength sports at all - powerlifting /weightlifting.

I'm just wondering if the T had stronger effects in certain sports that have a higher need for strength rather than a mix of strength/speed/skill/mobility?

I might have to go a googling or if you have any links, I would be interested in data.

Are we?

So that explains why so many women aren't in DV relationships, don't get raped or attacked... not.

Personally, i go into a public loo, find a cubic, have a wee and leave, i don't ever take any notice of what the women in there look like, so long as they look vaguely female.

The threat to women, in the main, comes from heterosexual men, yet do we have thread after thread on the almost 3 women murdered each week by men in a domestic setting? no we do not, instead its a man having a piss in a female loo that enrages a few people on here.

A trans women could still technically be a heterosexual male, so would pose a threat surely

This isn't just about toilets. I also don't want men in

Womens Prisons
Womens rape counselling groups
Womens hospital wards
Womens sports
Womens changing rooms

I also don't want men to provide intimate care to women who have asked for female carers or female doctors

My, the TRA's are really leaning heavily on the whole 'both sides as bad/respectful conversations' thing, aren't they?

Where was all this desire for respectful conversation to meet everyone's needs when women were being told to die in a grease fire?

We were told 'rights aren't a pie, bigot!!!'

They always, always come back to the toilets, don't they.

God, it's tedious.

I think it was largely swimming and athletics that was affected but there may have been some in the strength sports

No woman leaves a 'period blood' mess in the sink. Women are welcome to use the women's toilets and sinks and that's that. If you are eligible to be there in the ladies toilets and you see a woman leave a mess then feel free to take it up with her.

If you're a woman you really don't post like one.

It's worth noting that the East German Stasi secret service had an official policy that any woman athlete on their doping programme who became pregnant should have an abortion, and if a pregnancy continued they should be forced to give birth in a Stasi controlled hospital. They clearly recognised that giving young women steroids & testosterone would cause developmental problems in pregnancy. Funny how no-one is discussing the possible impact of NHS supplied cross sex hormones on pregnancy when a woman on topiramate for migraine has to get the coil and sign a pregnancy prevention plan.

I think this is the point, the debate has been reduced to toilet cubicles. Women are most likely more vulnerable to men pretending to be women in those other scenarios. Women have probably been peeing alongside trans women for decades, we only really got animated when it became clear that all our single sex spaces were now up for grabs.

Women aren't enraged because men are pissing in their loos, they're enraged because they've seen their own sex based rights systematically destroyed by a small, vocal minority. Until recently, we all lived side by side pretty harmoniously.

Most transwomen are heterosexual men.

I am absolutely a woman. And you are right that I have never seen period blood mess in the sinks in public loos. I don't think I used mess, did I? I've also never seen a woman clean a mooncup out in the sink. But if the argument is that women do this in loos and don't want to men to watch - which is fine - my completely tangential thought was that without antibac sprays and stuff, regardless of visible mess it's still unsanitary.

I do check the food hygiene rating of takeaways to make sure they're 5 and avoid touchscreens though, so I might be an outlier in my intolerance for bodily fluids in sinks.

I’ve never seen anyone rinse off a moon cup
in the sink. I use one and I’d hunt out a self contained loo with sink or take a bottle of water to the loo if necessary.

All a bit of a non-issue this mooncup thing, isn't it? You've never seen anyone rinse it off, neither have I. If I did then it would be yet another thing that women have to do that is absolutely none of my business and other than a smile in solidarity if they catch my eye, that would be it.

I really can't think why you mentioned it at all, Bloozie but then your posts really on this thread are very odd.

I mentioned it actually. I dont use a mooncup but some friends do and I have seen them rinse it. But honestly @Bloozie has taken that mention to go off on a tangent about hygiene.

Women need their own loos no matter what we do in them. Especially when the counter argument is that men can have their own loos because they are violent rapists.

I know a transman who uses the male (self contained) cubicle at a local pub. There is no urinal in there.

I know 2 transwomen, both many years post op, married to men. Live quiet lives under the radar, no activism. They dress in jeans/trainers/tshirts like me. I have never objected to them using the women’s toilets and still wouldn’t. I know they are biological men and I know the law has to be applied consistently.

I know both would now avoid places they usually go to if they had to use the men’s toilets.

This! Men are the threat, and TW are men, whether they like it or not.

I'm just going to wee before I go out and keep dehydrated until back home. Too bloody confusing