AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

Its not even just about rape and assault in toilets though. It's about feeling comfortable in womens spaces. I really dont want to be washing out my menstrual cup before men. Or breastfeeding. Or doing all the things women do. DD feels the same. Sometimes she just wants a break from men in the loo!

But at least @Bloozie you have acknowledged it's about other spaces as well. Personally I dont think the SC could have included transwomen in toilets and changing rooms while also excluding them from other spaces. That's a fact, not a feeling! We may have to agree to disagree on that.

In the past, when TRAs were given an inch, they grabbed a mile. This is why women are not giving an inch.

It is not about clothes or hair or muscles. It is about the fact that all men including those that imagine they are women , can be a risk to women and we should be entitled to say no. Breaking these barriers is a red flag, we are not afraid of women who imagine they are men. And proportionately TW have a higher rate of sexually violent offending than male prisoners in general. We can’t tell the difference between these men.

How did we get to the point that some people believe we can't have women only toilets because there haven't been enough sexual assaults in them to justify it?

If a woman is pumped full of testosterone and presents (fully physically) as a man then she’d probably use the mens anyway, if she felt safe enough to do so. Personally I’ve never once seen a convincing trans man, they all look like butch women to me, which is what they are and they’re obviously welcome in the womens toilets.

The same argument, however, cannot apply to trans women.

The law is now clear the trans women can be excluded from single sex provision. Not that they should be - they legally can be.

You're misunderstanding the ruling. The Equality Act allows there to be single sex provisions but does not require them. If there are single sex provisions the opposite sex must be excluded.

It is the single sex space that is optional not the exclusion of the opposite sex from them.

Other legislation may mandate that single sex provisions are requires

I have no problem with trans men, i.e. women, using women’s loos. It’s men I don’t want in single sex spaces which are reserved for women. HTH.

Sorry to quote myself but I’ve only had one reply to this, and that was ‘when has it ever happened?’

Im not sure that’s ok? Just because it might not have happened doesn’t mean the threat is not there. And also, the first time will be one time too many.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Because law has to be based in evidence when two parties' rights conflict, and trans people do have rights, however you feel about that.

They don't have the right to be in single sex spaces for members of the opposite sex though.

Tue ruling was actually quite clear on this.

Where a transman passes and is physically indistinguishable from another male to the extent that no one would recognise them as female, then they can also be refused access to women's single sex spaces and should continue to use whichever spaces they have been using.

In reality, this would also apply to transwomen because, let's face it, no genital/ID checks and all that.

But that is far less likely to happen because the effects of testosterone are irreversible so very few men would genuinely pass as women whereas it is possible that a taller broader woman who has taken testosterone and developed secondary sex characteristics could pass as a man.

I'll try and find the quote. I've seen it posted a few times!

It's not the point but women shouldn't have to breastfeed in loos, full stop. There isn't enough provision for quiet spaces for women to feed their children, and babies shouldn't be forced to eat in toilets. Adults wouldn't.

Trans women should be excluded from breastfeeding spaces too, while I'm at it.

Also not the point but I am extremely period positive and even I wouldn't wash out my menstrual cup in a public sink. Period blood isn't disgusting, but it isn't sanitary either and no human bodily fluid should be in sinks that other people use when there aren't facilities in loos to clean the sink after you've used it.

You're right. The question is what should be defined as a single sex space going forwards. I personally don't think toilets need to be. You do. Neither of us will decide, the courts will, and I trust them to make the right decision because it will be evidence based.

I wouldn’t want a man with a penis, or a woman who very much looks like a man, acts like a man etc in my changing room or toilet. Nor would I want this for my daughter.
These people are aware that they have themselves chosen to transition, and part of that should be an understanding that they will need to use disabled/unisex toilets. It is totally correct that they should not be using the women’s toilets.

Well luckily law and policy aren't made based on what you personally are OK with.

Single sex means single sex. Sex is binary and immutable. We're not going down the road of changing the definition of sex to make it mean complete nonsense, just to please men who believe they are women.

Do you think any court will rule that there is no legitimate or proportionate aim in having single sex toilets

I don't disagree with a single word of that.

Single sex means single sex - agreed.

Sex is binary and immutable - agreed.

We're not going to change the definition of sex - agreed.

But I would add that law and policy aren't made based on what YOU are personally OK with, either.

No. I think they'd rule that providers have the option, and that in certain settings single sex is mandatory, but but not all.

That's the law now.

Transwomen present a danger to women in the way that all men present a danger to women and should not be in their spaces.

Transmen do not present a danger to men. Indeed, they mainly represent a danger to themselves if they are rash enough to use male spaces. Because they are women.

But the position in law is already that it is reasonable and proportionate for women to have single sex spaces in a fairly wide range of situations.

And I think what we have seen since the Supreme Court judgment is evidence that the number of women who consider that they want and need such spaces by far exceeds the number of trans women who want access to them.

Men don’t have the right to be in women’s single sex spaces.

Even if they claim to be transwomen .

That IS the law.

As confirmed by the Supreme Court.

Yes, they do and the ruling has been very clear about that and I've not read a single comment from anyone on MN saying otherwise.

But not the right to use provisions for the opposite sex. It's literally that simple.

We have had single sex toilets in the UK since 1880s. Primarily because it enabled women to leave the house for longer periods and to have privacy and dignity in doing so.

We don't need new evidence now based on how many women have been raped.in single sex toilets to continue to provide them 🙄

Well, as long as you're not raped... is a pretty low bar to set for protecting women's rights. Don't you think?

Scottish judge just ruled that schools have to provide single sex toilets and I expect this will extend to other spaces.

Because women have certain things they do in loos that men don't, regardless of all the nitpicking about where women should breastfeed or how they should take care of their menstrual functions. I am not even talking about proper breastfeeding. I am talking about basic things like fishing a soaked breastfeeding pad out of your bra. Sponging stains off your clothing. Struggling with flooding periods in peri.

Things only women do.

I don't think I understand what you're unhappy about anymore.

Single sex means single sex - agreed.

Sex is binary and immutable - agreed.

We're not going to change the definition of sex - agreed.

But you still want to knpw exactly what the risk of a woman being raped in a single sex toilet by a TW is to see whether it's justifiable to keep them out?

Surely the three points you agreed with above nullifies that?

The law has already clarified that organisations aren't required to provide single sex provisions. But, where they do, they must be single sex.

I don't understand what is so confusing for you.

In fairness it is all getting very confusing. I think I should probably stop replying to everyone - not in a 'walking away whistling' way, but just because I think my point is getting lost.

I'm not convinced that toilets should be included in single sex provision based on the evidence. I'm not upset about anything, I just disagree with some of you on this.