To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

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I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

The 'debate' was horrendously unbalanced. Jo from Essex (I hope I remembered that correctly) was the lone voice of reason amongst all the callers and pretty much the (sometimes non-commital) panel too.

Jane Fae even shoehorned in the offensive old racist trope that having separate spaces for males and females is the same as segregating people by skin colour. Interestingly, Jane didn't see fit to mention all of the socially-excluded women of faith - many of them also people of colour - whose lives are now seriously restricted owing to the lack of proper single-sex facilities for them to use in compliance with their strongly-held beliefs.

Any casual viewer would take from that section that the majority of people see this as no concern at all, apart from a very few outliers looking to start arguments; completely skipping over the reality of millions of people - women and men - who can see the true picture and understand the dangers to women's safety and dignity.

If expecting transwomen to use the correct toilets for their biological sex is the equivalent of 'not wanting them to exist', why is there no complaint about the erasure of all of the 'standard' men who are also expected to use the correct toilets too? The only difference I can see is that the former group are demanding to take over other people's facilities, whilst the immensely larger latter group are happy with their own (equally good) facilities.

Incidentally, if anybody hasn't seen it before, Jane's appearance on an old Victoria Derbyshire programme - where Jane denounces a 69yo Dutch man (who may or may not have been seeking to prove a point) as absolutely ridiculous for wanting to legally identify as a 'transage' 49yo - proves very clearly that Jane only believes in affirming and respecting people's own personal identities (and citing cases of discrimination for comparison) when it suits Jane's agenda.

I just read this as 'you've taken woman away from us, so you can't have it either' and dismiss it as nonsense. I know there's no test in the world, from a cursory glance at my appearance to a full on medical exam that could ever cast doubt on the fact I am a woman. Just as there's no test to prove a male person is a woman. If TRAs want to believe otherwise and even prefer to imagine I'm not a woman either, then they can go at it. It's nothing to do with my life or reality. The important thing is that the law recognises us for who we are and affords us appropriate protections.

I think people who have diagnosed sex disorders have asked not to be used as a gotcha for trans right movement. Having a medical condition is very different to someone else having an identity or a feeling. This is a really good Ted talk from someone who found out her diagnosis age 10.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=28Ip-STEPKU

I think 'dont be bloody ridiculous ' would be my first response.

Well I’d say your friend was actually male so not a woman. Whether she should not be referred to as a woman, she/her and her presumably female name anymore, no I think that would just be unnecessarily cruel to someone who has already been through something traumatic. My personal view is that people with this sort of DSD should still be allowed to use the ladies toilet and changing rooms. They look female, haven’t gone through male puberty and are unlikely to be a threat to women. Nobody is likely to notice anyway. Saying that they’re biological women is inaccurate though.

I think the mistake some TW tend to make, is that they think women see womanhood the same way they do, as aspirational and a deeply prized badge of honour. So when they cast doubt on our womanhood, or use their insult of choice 'I'm more a woman than you are', that they are deeply offending us. What they don't and can't understand is that most women don't see being a woman as an achievement that we succeed or fail at. For most of us, it just is who and what we are. We're not in danger of losing it (some of us don't even want it, certainly not in the form they seem to believe it takes) and we don't feel a sense of competition with them over it. Most of us just object to the practical issues that arise when men lay claim to it, and what that means for our rights and safety.

Jeremy Vine has a trans woman friend and his discussion on this subject are always based in favour of trans people. He doesn’t want to cause offence to trans people but he doesn’t care about offence to women. IMHO

I just meant that if someone asked that question of me personally the answer I would use would be I’ve been having periods since I was 11 and have given birth twice.
For the vast majority of women “I was identified as female at birth and have gone through female puberty” would cover it.

It’s a fair question given that women engaged in this debate ask it regularly - especially of athletes or sportspeople. Remember the woman who won a marathon or parkrun (can’t remember which) who was subject to a whole thread on here questioning her sex, then posted on the thread that she’d birthed several kids and another shame-faced apology thread was created? Seems that’s been conveniently forgotten. If you don’t want your sex questioned, don’t do it to other people who don’t look stereotypically female. Sounds like the caller was just batting back the same question regularly raised by campaigners.

Interesting that we are consistently told that trans rights take nothing away from women and that our womanhood is not threatened in any way, yet we are now being told as part of the TRA argument that we may not actually be women and if men can’t say they are women then neither can we without “proof”.

If trans women are women then what are they transitioning to? The criteria for being a trans woman is that you are a man, if you are not a man and you identify as a woman then you are just a woman.

When you break their argument down there are so many contradictions that I cannot believe anyone with a degree of intelligence who has actually thought about it critically could buy into it.

I'd have just said 'I'm female. I know I'm female because when I look down I see two tits and a vulva. My doctors at the gynecology office and breast clinic seem to believe that I'm female so I'm not aware of any further testing to confirm that fact?'

No one would be suspicious or questioning any woman’s sex if we weren’t being told that some biological men are actually women.

It’s no wonder people don’t trust that someone of a more masculine appearance is a woman when we are being collectively gaslit into thinking men are women.

Not all females menstruate. But all people who menstruate are female.

This is a direct consequence of women no longer being able to trust that their spaces, services and sports are female only. Reinstate the integrity of those boundaries and suspicion will reduce.

Makes the transwoman sound like a petty idiot. That's about the size of it.

Great answer!

‘Ever been tested as female’ Easy reply
yes at birth by a qualified nurse/doctor. This was recorded on my birth certificate & signed by the register of births & deaths.

I keep seeing this argument and it is so stupid and over the top. Even as somebody who is fairly neutral on the topic of trans issues / rights people are being dumb on the topic.

Most of us know what sex we are and how it shows. We don’t need testing to be aware of that.

It’s incredibly rude. Unfortunately the debate isn’t respectful, including on here. However the law is now clear ( as the biology ever was, in reality).

Exactly. Did the trans woman guest share his male result?

There's a dim attempt at a 'gotcha' going around with memes about dsd conditions, which are vanishingly rare and unrelated to men wearing women's clothes and saying they are now women.

Ambiguity about sex is a different thing and extremely uncommon so to suddenly go 'what sex are you, have you been tested?' is just inane.

'Are you a biologist? No, I'm not a vet either but I know what a dog is.' as someone once said

So, my first clue was that I was born with a vagina and not a cock. Pretty simple, really.

i'd just say "no, plenty of us have done that absolutely unique female thing and had a baby, plenty more of us are doing/have done another absolutely unique female thing and have periods. And it's not as if we can't tell boys from girls, is it, otherwise how would you know who you fancy?"

kindly. If they have XY chromosomes they are not a woman.

This is the case for every person with DSDs and i have a lot of sympathy with them. However they have repeatedly asked not to be dragged into the trans debate, as that is not their issue or problem.

And what would your friend say, even looking and feeling like a woman, if we DID have to present a chromosome test before we entered a single-sex space? Because they have been tested and shown to be a man. It would be a disaster for them. Nobody i know has any problem with people like your friend coming into women's spaces. Nobody. But your friend can thank the rabid TRAs and AGPs who have fucked it up royally for everyone.

It’s an attempt to suggest that sex is a ‘nebulous’ concept when it really isn’t.

TRA bullshit designed to argue that we can’t possibly know the sex of a man/ transwoman. Which is complete nonsense.