To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

[AlertMaker]

I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

Pink news? Give me a break 🙄

It's a stranglely absent story on any site which doesn't like trans people. I really thought they'd be all over it.

Here's another link if that one is unpalatable.

https://www.hrgrapevine.com/us/content/article/2025-03-28-walmart-faces-backlash-over-dismissal-of-worker-labelled-as-being-trans-gender

I can't say I've ever heard of hrgrapevine 🫠

Its a terrible shame that men's actions have created a climate of distrust that is impacting these women, I agree.

There is no need to side eye anyone in a toilet. Why do you feel entitled to do that? If someone is behaving in an aggressive or threatening manner, then leave and call police or security. If they are simply using the facilities, leave them alone.

I mean, no? If a male is using the women's toilets then they are not entitled to be there. That's what gives me the right.

I’m not sure I’d be “shocked” at this at all. I assume they knew what the phone in was about.

But you didn't say men. You said people of ambiguous sex. Which is me, and the PP that you were replying to. And millions of other biological women who are effected by DSD or hormones. Do you feel you that you would have a right to question me in the bathroom? Would you be brave and ask me if I belong there? And would I then be obligated to prove myself to you?

I can tell you right now, I'd not be saying 'but I'm a woman' in a meek voice. I'd not be producing any ID. What then? If I couldn't/wouldn't prove myself?

Forgot to quote you.

I have sympathy, but i wonder what you think the opposite ruling would have brought for you personally? nothing

I have said consistently that women who deliberately change/alter their appearance to be "non stereotypically feminine" should be prepared to be gently told/challenged that they are in female facilities.

I would hope, that while tedious, uncomfortable and no-doubt upsetting for you, you would be ok with a gentle reminder and your answer of "i know"

because a ruling going the other way would mean any and all men could march, unhindered, into women's facilities unchallenged. Or if challenged for the challenger to end up in court on the losing side.

This ruling means that men should stay out. And for the vast majority of people, that must be good.

Unfortunately, as you know to your cost, there are always exceptions ("collateral damage")

Aaaah ok, yeah I was straight to endo, most severe cases are. There’s no doubt from quite young there was trouble afoot hormonally. I think I was 14 when PCOS was first mentioned.

Im lucky that conceiving was never a problem for us, carrying was a different story but I have 2 beautiful biological children I conceived and carried with no intervention which is a rarity in the PCOS community.

I didnt deliberately change my appearance to appear less feminine - the challenging happened when I dressed in dresses and makeup because on me, those trappings made me look like a trans
woman to other women. I started dressing androgynously because trans women don’t do that, they tend to dress feminine to ‘affirm’ themselves or whatever. I never wanted to dress like this, but I find doing so meant I got bothered less.

As I’ve repeatedly stated, I agree with the ruling on balance. Whichever way it went wouldn’t have made my life any better, but this way will make it significantly worse. That’s ok, because I recognise it will protect some other women and girls from men, it just won’t protect me from women.

It’s people like you who feel entitled to challenge me, a woman, just there to have a wee.

you misread me - i wasn't including you in the women who have deliberately changed their appearance.

But people will feel more able to challenge anyone they don't immediately clock as a woman. This will, unfortunately, now include you and other women with PCOS. And it is awful, on a personal level, truly horrible.

On a population level, however, this situation works much better for many many women and girls.

Personally, unless they were being creepy and weird, i wouldn't challenge anyone. And many other women wouldn't either. I hope that will be your future experience.

sorry to harp on - so you think that nobody should challenge anyone?

@AlertMaker curious to know who the guest was

Honestly, no, I wouldn't say anything to anyone who looked like a masculine woman because I know what masculine women look like and how they differ from men, even feminine ones. However I am not surprised that some women have challenged masculine women in women's toilets over the past ten years and I blame trans activists for that, not women or feminists.

Sorry Fanny, please free to tell me to stop jumping on your replies.

I just really, really want to know. If I got challenged, and my response was silence, or 'none of your business' or 'I'm not proving myself to you', then what? What should happen? What's the next step?

Actually no. I don't challenge anyone in the women's loos, even when I've come across men in there. I also know what a woman looks like. That's not what I was saying.

I’m sure the woman who called me a pervert was absolutely, 100% sure she knew what a masculine woman looked like, too. She’d have had to be to have had the ovaries on her to challenge a complete stranger like that. Personally, I blame right wing media outlets for scapegoating trans people for the last 9 years mercilessly, tiktok for the sudden onset trans phenomenon in teenagers that created so much fear and mostly, I blame the women who appoint themselves the pants police and righteously abuse me in the name of protecting herself and others when we two are alone in a bathroom and she’s the one shouting abuse. I was just washing my hands.

I'd probably be able to tell by the way you answered?

as i said i most likely wouldn't challenge anyone but the most obvious (or well known) transwoman (eg Izzard, Willoughby et al). And if i were to challenge, it would be along the lines of "this is the ladies"

but your not answering, and i get why you wouldn't want to, might make someone uncomfortable, worried or scared. So what is the answer?

ETA: what i mean is, how do we keep men out of women's spaces?

So if you know what women look like why are you side eyeing them? How does that makes sense?

"I know you're a woman, it's just that you look masculine so it's okay for me to glare at you."
Then blaming the harassment of individual people who may or may not be trans, or may just be masculine women, on a completely separate group of people who are not there in that bathroom and have nothing to do with it.

Class.

This is exactly what I want to know - it’s not happened to me since the ruling, but I genuinely want to know 1. How I’m expected to ‘prove’ my sex and 2. How I’m supposed to respond when I’m challenged? In the past I have never said anything back because I’m usually completely frozen. It’s confronting and frightening and also deeply hurtful because despite having come to terms with my appearance over the years, I am a straight female who is proud of being a woman and looking masculine has haunted me all my life. Imagine someone screaming abuse at you about your deepest insecurity and feeling absolutely no issues with doing so. I’d dearly love to know how I’m supposed to respond to that.

I'd just say 'I'm a woman' and your voice will make it clear, even if it's on the deeper side for a woman, it won't sound like a man.

Ok so let’s take your example. I am standing at the sink washing my hands and you come up behind me and say ‘this is the ladies’ because you are absolutely certain I am a man and you are not afraid of me or my reaction. I immediately bristle because you’re not the first and won’t be the last, I’m now hurting, you have pointed out my deepest insecurity and I’m feeling absolutely shit for the rest of the day in all likelihood. I turn around to you and I say ‘yes, I know’. It’s probably a bit short, my voice will be deeper because I’m trying not to cry. Then what? What’s next? I didn’t start this, you did, it’s not my responsibility to affirm your choice to interact with me so what do you say to me next?

A trans woman would also say ‘I’m a woman’.