To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

[AlertMaker]

I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

@commonsense61 We can. How do you enforce it though?

A law hasn’t been passed recently, it’s just been clarified. There’s no ‘mass panic’. Nobody is panicking. They are saying that men should comply with the law. Seems a bit misogynistic to say women standing up for their rights under law are ‘panicking’ wouldn’t you say? Trans women (and other men) should simply stay out of women’s spaces as the law requires.

My point is about policing it - why do we feel we have to scan everyone in the toilet and say ‘you don’t look like you belong here’.

😂 of course you’d say I’m being misogynistic for pointing out that 100s of threads and discussions on radio and TV are mass panic - in the same way as I’d say it about the coverage of Trump and Musk and countless hypothetical scenarios that are being discussed currently.

That's no argument to embolden them by allowing them in

@SmegmaCausesBV All I would like to know is how we enforce this. All I've read is that you can always tell. That isn't my experience though.

because they are deliberately trying to obfuscate it and are in spaces where they shouldn’t be

“They” are not trying to obfuscate anything. they are simply trying to live a private , dignified and safe life, participate in society and use services in ways that are compatible with that, exactly the same as you and me and most other members of society

I quite like the "men will use any excuse/method to ogle, assault and rape anyway, so let's just shrug our shoulders" argument. It is (probably unintentionally) elegant in demonstrating exactly why women are correct to not want to share single-sex spaces with men.

I couldn't care less about your outrage.

@Kucinghitam Rapists and perverts will always find a way. I would like to know how far we go in order to protect ourselves?

My meno brain is having a hard time with understanding how this law will work in the long run. Thanks to all those who respectfully put their arguments across.

Now we KNOW men are not allowed in by law, any woman can go to the police or manager of the establishment and alert them that a man is in the loo and they need to get them out.

Yup, you are absolutely right.

Most of us are in agreement on this thread that people of nefarious purpose will use any method they can find, in order to ogle, assault and rape. And that nobody can know what is inside somebody's head. And that it is impossible to police those who would transgress boundaries.

The only logical thing to do is to shrug our shoulders and let whatever happens, happen.

It also makes prosecution for assault more difficult. If men are allowed in the women's toilets, the case rests on his word against the woman's as to whether he committed an assault while in there. The woman's case is significantly strengthened when the man has no legitimate reason under law to be in there in the first place, and can no longer claim one.

Mass interest isn’t the same as mass panic. Who is panicking? Why do you think it’s a panic? There's been an important clarification of women’s rights, of course it’s being discussed. No panic.
People may well be worried about a lot of what Trump and Musk have been up to - if you see coverage of this as ‘panic’ too then it tells me a fair bit about your position, politically speaking.

The argument of “men don’t need to enter women’s spaces to hurt women, they will do it anyway” is completely illogical.

If you take that stance then I presume you are in favour of removing all sex segregation completely? Because by your own argument if men want to rape women they will just do it anyway, so what’s the point in trying to protect vulnerable women from men at all? Why
not have men and women share prison cells? If a man wants to rape a woman he doesn’t need to go to prison to do it, he will do it anyway .

Would you also be in favour of removing gun control laws? Since if people want to shoot someone they will get a gun anyway? Removing driving licences since people who aren’t safe to drive will do so anyway?

It’s the most ridiculous argument and I see it parroted everywhere and it is deeply misogynistic, as it is not applied to any other crime.

We all agree that taking steps to prevent crime
and protect vulnerable people are necessary even if we can’t completely prevent that crime and even if those measures inconvenience or upset some people, so why is this suddenly not worth doing just because it inconveniences/upsets trans women? Because validating and appeasing biological men is seen as more important than the safety of women.

Sexual predators are very rarely men who grab women or children off the street, they are very often highly manipulative men who go to significant effort to seek access to vulnerable people while not appearing to be a threat.

I’ve not once said that women’s toilets should have massive posters on the doors advertising ‘men welcome’.

There is a poster upthread that has been born a woman, is a woman, but is mistaken for a man. To what extent is she required to prove that she is a woman that is satisfactory to people and more importantly, if they feel she does not pass the woman test, what are they going to do about it? Call the police?

The law is there, it is what it is and nobody’s views can change that at this present time. I am asking why are people so hyper aware and hyper vigilant of who is in the bathroom in general (unless of course they give you cause for concern with their behaviour)

They are obfuscating their male sex. They are entitled to, of course, and it may well be to the benefit of their mental health. I have no problem with it at all until they try to use this as a way to access women only spaces. At that point they’ll be asked to prove their right to be there - which they can’t. No need for them to be challenged at all, just keep out of the spaces. Some are just trying to live a private, dignified and safe life too - that’s why they don’t want men in their spaces. Interesting that you place trans women’s right to privacy, dignity and safety above that of women.

There are lots of laws we can’t enforce 100% of the time. All of them probably. That’s not a reason not to have them, and it doesn’t mean they don’t make people safer even with a less than complete level of enforcement. Men should keep out of women’s spaces, then there’s no need for enforcement. At least now a challenge can be made if they don’t without the woman being called a bigot.

Life just isn’t that simple I’m afraid

Who says we are? We now have the right to challenege though. Do remember that toilets aren’t the be all and end all of this debate, though TRAs would like you to think they are. It’s much harder to justify men being in women’s prisons, hospital wards, sport and refuges. Should we not challenge men there either?

You seem not to want to do anything to reduce risk. How far would you go?