To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

[AlertMaker]

I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

@borntobequiet What do you know of their background?

I feel this again strays into making women the problem. It's a recurring theme.

And this is where my views on this become complex because I understand the uncomfortableness that women will experience in a place like a changing room, where a lot of the time you are less clothed and in a more vulnerable position. But I’ve also been to a pool changing room where women have no shame and will happily let their boobs fall out in the communal area, as opposed to changing fully in a cubicle, so for any of those scenarios I would too move.

Toilets I have more of a tolerance for - you use them more often, you walk in to a cubicle where you close the door and you leave. There’s no reason to be so overprotective of that space, which is what a lot of those debates are about.

It’s such an easy challenge to rebut that I just don’t care. “Yes, I am confirmed female. I have given birth to another human being. Moving on”.

@Ponderingwindow Yes, anyone can say those words.

Can we not hinge our proof that we’re female on childbirth, please? Although I’ve been lucky enough to have 2 children, so many in my community who have hormonal imbalances will never be able to have children and that doesn’t mean they are any less women.

If I am asked the question again I will answer ‘yes’ and nothing more. I’m not sure what happens next if you ask me to prove it, do you?

@Fannycrevasse I never thought of that. My sister can't have children. She's no less of a woman than any other. Thanks for the reminder.

@commonsense61 We already had that. Perverts and rapists will always find a way.

Well, quite. I bet he doesn’t ask for a certificate before knowing which people to fancy.

Hard agree.

Very horrific crimes, and I’m obviously very sympathetic to the victims but as @Shegotanology said - they will always find a way. What’s stopping a man sneaking in to the toilet when nobody’s looking, or doing this in plain sight on an escalator, or a lift, or a car park? The Hijab point is one I’ve not considered - so will give it some thought. Although there is nothing wrong in waiting a moment to use the mirror once somebody has left, if you feel that they are not what you believe is a woman.

So a woman should have to wait about until her space is vacated by a trespasser? ‘Men will find a way to rape’ is such a poor excuse for letting them into places without question. As someone else said, either here or on one of the other threads, people will find a way to speed too - should we just abandon speed cameras and speed limits?

There is nothing stopping a rapist intent on raping going ahead and raping. We find ways to reduce the risk. Hence single sex spaces. Males who should not be in these spaces stick out, they are more likely to attract notice. This is part of safeguarding and part of how we keep women and children safe.

All I want to know is, what is the end game? As a woman, I've never felt safe. It doesn't matter where we go, we're always on our guard.
Just how far will this go? Do we segregate ourselves completely?
Should we go as far as carrying ID?
What about genetic testing? Although this would pose a problem for women born with XY chromosomes (Swyer syndrome).

No, I am not for allowing men in to female spaces. I do however believe that trans women exist and are not harmful to other women as a baseline. So whilst there will be isolated events in which opportunistic men will use it as a ‘way in’ to commit crime, this does not mean that we have to develop a phobia towards every case and police and scrutinise at every possible opportunity.

People will find a way round all safeguards - should we just abandon them? Should we abandon speed limits, let random adults wander unchecked through schools? Should we abandon border security? I trust you leave your front door wide open at night because, you know, burglars will always find away.

Why are you so desperate to allow members of the opposite sex into a single sex space when to be single sex it has proved to be proportionate to the dignity, privacy and safety to the women using it. Why do you think your wishes trump the highest court in the land. Do you have a lack of respect for the rule of law in all situations

Of course the woman has to shut her mouth, wait her turn. The men and those magical legions of bio women who look so male that no one can tell them apart come first.
Don't you dare mention periods, pregnancies, childbirth etc as identifying characteristics of Femaleness either in case the you irretrievably damage feelings of those tiny number of women who cannot. The whole discourse around this 'identification' question is meant to gaslight women and we see experts in this thread doing so.

Where’s the phobia in my post?
trans women exist, of course. They are men. The SC has just confirmed that they aren’t allowed to use female spaces. Toilets designated female are, fairly obviously, female spaces. They should keep out. Danger is irrelevant.

this does not mean that we have to develop a phobia towards every case and police and scrutinise at every possible opportunity.

Here comes the scold is for the non-existent crimes of women.

Toilets I have more of a tolerance for - you use them more often, you walk in to a cubicle where you close the door and you leave. There’s no reason to be so overprotective of that space, which is what a lot of those debates are about

This is a great point - yes, really. Men's toilets also have cubicles for privacy. So why exactly are some men so fixated on going in the women's toilets instead? What earthly need is there to be so prissy about it? If they just want to have a wee and leave, why does it matter what genitals are on the other side of the door?

Silly me, it's because women are a resource to exploit for validation at best and often a lot worse.

@MyHeartyCoralSnail Laws reflected societal bias and power structures. Youve only got to look at slavery to know that we don't always get it right.

Exactly.

This entire thread was about proving women using these spaces are in fact women. Whether I believe in the law that was passed or not, or whether anyone else on this thread isn’t really the point I was making in the first place. It’s about the mass panic that’s developed right now and people feeling the need to vet and police who is in the toilet at any given time.

Trans women are questioned on their sex because they are deliberately trying to obfuscate it and are in spaces where they shouldn’t be. Fairly easy for them to avoid I’d say. It’s much more difficult for @Fannycrevasse because she isn’t doing those things. I’d say her evidence suggests the reason it’s happening to her is entirely because of entitled trans women insisting on intruding on women’s spaces. Maybe put the blame where it should be.