To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

[AlertMaker]

I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

It’s not a new law it’s clarification of an old one, which worked perfectly well until TRAs decided to advise people to ignore it. Men can decide to follow the law. Problem solved.

Thank you for enlightening me by pointing out that this is a much wider discussion that goes beyond toilets. As I’ve mentioned before, my opinions are not black and white on this and my view on transgender people is not the point of the conversation I’ve engaged in. The discussion upthread was about toilets, so toilets is what I’ve discussed.

To answer your question in the final paragraph, women have become hyper vigilant because men have transgressed their boundaries by entering women only spaces. As has been said before on this thread, that’s an act which in and of itself is threatening. Doesn’t matter what they do once in the space. Entering shows they have no care at all for legal boundaries. I’m pretty vigilant about people who are happy to transgress boundaries just because they feel like it. Aren’t you?

Currently a lot less is stopping men than used to because the boundaries of acceptability have been blurred. If it's going to happen anyway, which is the endless implication, then why the hell are people making it so much easier to do?

Yes it is. The law says women’s spaces are for women, meaning those observed female at birth. This is to protect the privacy, dignity and safety of women. That’s it. It’s that simple.
I have sympathy for people with gender dysphoria, but their privacy, dignity and safety doesn’t trump that of women.

That can only really be determined by the success in holding entirely reasonable boundaries.

At least the Overton Window for this discussion has mostly moved on from "male people can invade female single-sex spaces because TRSOH StoneLaw and female people should silently budge up" to "Urgh, fine, male people probably shouldn't invade female single-sex spaces, but <handwringing> we cannot possibly police this so gosh those male people will invade anyway"...

It's progress of a sort.

Not even legal boundaries, just the basic, reasonable requests of women and a straightforward 'no'. It's incoherent to simultaneously teach girls to uphold their own boundaries and to suppress collective ones.

Nobody’s dignity or privacy trumps anyone else’s. That’s not how society works.

I note and It’s interesting that in this instance you used the phrase “observed female at birth”, as apposed to the chromosome dogma people seem to go in for these days.

I'd say women's privacy, dignity and safety trumps everyone else's within the confines of our own designated spaces.

For the many, not the few. Wasn't that a Labour slogan before they all went loopy?

This bullying, intimidation type of shit is infuriating and disgusting. It's definitely only going to hurt the trans cause, if this starts happening more often.

Do you walk around with your fucking eyes and ears shut?

that makes no sense when those spaces pertain to fundamental public services.
Also these kinds of attitudes do nothing for anyone’s privacy or dignity. This cartoon helps illustrate .

You can’t allow biological men to self identify as women without compromising the dignity, safety and privacy of all women. Women are not shields for men who feel they are in danger from other men. There needs to be a third space for those men.

It is simply not possible to allow biological men to enter women’s spaces such as changing rooms, refuges and prisons and not compromise our safety due to the inherent risks we face from men.

Those spaces pertain specifically TO the privacy, dignity and safety of the people they exist for

Isn't it mad how when it comes to woman it's always made out to be incredibly difficult? From the boundaries drawn around our facilities and the services built from the ground up, to misogyny as a hate crime. It's always oh so difficult.

People don’t tend to have chromosome tests unless there’s some ambiguity in what can be observed at birth or a disorder makes itself felt later (usually at puberty). It was TRAs who kept banging on about chromosomes.
As for rights not trumping each other, that’s exactly why trans women (and other men) shouldn’t enter women’s spaces. As soon as that happens women’s right to single sex spaces is trashed. Glad we agree.

It I.lustrates nothing except the weird insistence that nobody knows shat anyone’s sex is. For the vast majority, we absolutely do. For the others, respectful questions seem in order. And yes, I know a few women will feel upset by this. I feel for them. I really do. But since we can’t trust men not to come into our spaces we do have a right to check. Hopefully when this settles and men stay in their own spaces people will feel less inclined to check.

I think the reason why their arguments are overly complicated is because at the crux of it it makes no sense.

Gender theory is full of contradictions and circular reasoning. That’s why they tie themselves up in knots trying to answer basic questions and pretend it’s oh so complicated and we are just too stupid to understand. It’s not complicated at all, it’s just illogical.

Just getting back into this discussion after flitting and out.

A woman declaring they feeling threatened is problematic. Firstly you are requiring a female people to declare their stress maybe have to declare a trauma response. This might be ok for you, but it shouldn’t be needed.

Plus, the very male people who are there to transgress boundaries want this response. That is part of why they transgress boundaries.

It's a shame that a small but delusional group of people didn't think they are entitled to shove in where they don't belong. Frankly, I'm past the point of caring about how they might feel, when our feelings are shrugged off as an inconvenience. Ho-hum. 'Be kind' (code for 'sit down and shut up'). Now when that's stopped working, it's, 'Well, you know, you could be assaulted anywhere.' Such an effective argument!

They've brought up a whole host of problems for women who rightfully don't want males in single-sex spaces, yet we're the ones to blame for not just taking it.

I'm raging for the actual women who will be made to feel like shit because someone supposedly can't tell whether or not they're female, and I'll judge any women who use this as an excuse to bully. I think you need to be very sure before you raise the issue—which to be fair, is usually fairly easy, since most men can't pass as women. Personally, I'd be hesitant to confront a man on my own even if I were positive he were male in a female-only space, because some of these people are absolutely nuts and prone to violence. (Especially the ones that haven't even made a real effort and are clearly male.)

“Respectful questions”? If such questions are respectful , remind me what this thread is about…?
And these “respectful questions” are to be triggered by what - If someone doesn’t look quite right to you? And ‘some poor women will be upset’ by this , but that’s apparently just how it is to be because of your ‘rights’? Are you actually serious? Pleeeeaaaase.

For the love of god what is going on in this country.