To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

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I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

Yes, I do think that’s changed for me from this thread.

What makes him male and gay, if there is no such thing as a sexed body or same-sex attraction?

The correct answer would seem to be "No, ta. Got a vagina, ta. An actual functioning one, rather than a festering wound, for the avoidance of doubt." The bigger issue is that the majority of women have been conditioned to be polite and considerate. Time we learned to meet blunt and obnoxious with blunt and obnoxious.

I noticed that too. The extreme obsessiveness is another giveaway.

It will only be asked by posturing idiots and I expect will get old very quickly because it's such a stupid thing to ask.

Plenty of women can look androgynous. I used to revel in my androgyny when I was younger because I'm tall and slim (and a big fan of Tilda Swinton), but IME as soon as someone walks, speaks, interacts you can tell what sex they are very easily.

I’ve only ever been challenged by other women, should I be obnoxious to them? That puts me at risk though, I don’t know how that woman will react?

Yeah so Tilda Swinton I think is incredibly feminine looking even though she typically dresses androgynously. I’d never expect anyone to be in any doubt that she is a woman. That’s, sadly, not the same situation that I’m in.

I’m interested to know how many women have actually been in a toilet and felt the need to question someone’s gender. Because up to this point in my life, I have never even given it a thought. Just seems like a lot of this debate is based on a hypothetical scenario but is clearly causing a lot of upset to both sides.

Like I say I reckon 13/14 times for me since 2015, before that, never.

@JasmineAllen Thanks. I now feel much more confident that I'll never be confused for a man.

And I’m sorry you’ve had to experience that - I personally don’t even notice the people around me in a toilet, I don’t scan them upon entry. I go in, do my business, wash my hands and leave.

I think my post is more general - the countless threads on this, when most people are very unlikely to ever be in a situation where they need to care.

Pretty much every woman will either have had periods, or had testing to determine why not if that haven't started by 19. So yes basically everyone has been tested if necessary.

Up until the trans movement went all out on gender self ID, I really didn’t give it any thought.

Since then, it’s something I’m aware of.

I agree with you, and the constant attention it’s afforded makes the whole thing worse. I hope the SC ruling takes the heat out of the conversation and it settles - I doubt it though.

You're welcome 😁

Maybe, to make sure that it never happens, women could wear some uniform or carry an ID card/chip that would prove sex?

The problem with putting emphasis on behaviour rather than presence, so, in other words, accepting the presence of male people who are not behaving badly; is that it fails to take account of how quickly sexual assaults can happen. The man who assaulted a woman in New Street station toilets, claiming in his police interview he was a woman, assaulted his victim by bending down beside her and putting his hand up her skirt while she was drying her hands. One minute standing nearby, the next assaulting her. No preliminary suspicious behaviour for her to challenge, other than being a man. Which as he claimed he was a woman, wasn't considered suspicious either prior to the ruling. The other problem is, that the man standing there innocently washing his hands while in a toilet with multiple women, may behave very differently if it ended up being just him and one woman left in there.

Even since the movement, I’ve not gone in to the toilet thinking ‘I really need to have an awareness of who’s in here’. Nobody has ever bothered me with any untoward behaviour for me to question their gender.

Ah yes, like our very own UK concentration camp.

@TY78910 Yes. Just so that we know our place.

I think it depends where you live. Where I am the city centre has multiple places that have repurposed women's toilets (and sometimes ONLY women's toilets) to be open to all. I doubt many women have felt the ability to question it even if they wanted to. One place I remember at the tail end of covid, which had kept the illusion of mens and womens, one day had multiple trans identified males going in and out following a convention so we decided on balance to leave as the staff didn't give a shit.

When I think about challenging openly I usually think of the little shopping centre toilets I mentioned earlier where someone got caught filming, because they're small and at the end of a corridor. It's a known issue there. The pp who said most women would just leave is right - but that's not an acceptable solution imo.

Edit - sorry I should clarify - not questioning anyone's gender but challenging the presence of males/men. Two slightly different things I think.

I get that, and I’ve been to places that are arguably very diverse. My point is, a lot of this is in people’s mindsets. If you enter an area purposefully looking out for an issue, you will find it. If a man wants to commit SA, he will find a way of dressing as a woman and weaving his way in to a toilet whether he claims that he is a trans woman or a woman. Most of the time though, whoever is using this space will be there for a legitimate reason - to pee.

Nor do I. But I am naturally aware of all the people around me. And I notice when something doesn’t seem as expected.

In saying that, I consider myself good at identifying the sex of humans. I ignore all the clothes. I don’t even look at hair styles. It is movement that I notice.

Obviously some people don’t notice. But it is not correct to assume that others don’t and dismiss their needs by questioning their perception ability because you, personally, don’t notice things.

There’s a transwoman who likes to use the changing rooms at my gym. I changed my routine slightly so I wouldn’t have to encounter him. What I know of his background makes me particularly wary. (The way he strews his belongings around is an additional issue, but not trans related, I think.)

Young teenage girls use these changing rooms unsupervised on occasion, and I wouldn’t want them to encounter him. He’s in his sixties, and quite a big, tall bloke.