To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

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I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

And a male person even being in a female single sex space is a concern. It is harmful despite your constant dismissal of this.

I have not misunderstood at all.

I imagine this question will be asked a lot, from now on. Are you trans or a woman? And can you prove it?

Ok, so explain to me how, in that moment, that person is so threatening to you as they dry their hands that it is safer for you to challenge them than let them leave the toilet and continue on their day? In this instance YOU would be the one starting an interaction with a complete stranger not knowing what their reaction is likely to be and all that person has done to warrant your interaction is be there? This is my point, theoretically online it makes sense to challenge people you think are male - in reality though it isn’t productive and can be actively harmful if and when you’re wrong, and women do get it wrong.

Thinking about it I don’t know if a polite ‘hi, I’m feeling a bit threatened by you, can you confirm you’re female?’ Would actually be a problem, I think I’d be ok with that because at least the person has a reason for asking and has explained it. You are uncomfortable by my presence and you want to feel better by confirming I’m no threat to you. That’s ok. That’s not, from experience, what has happened to me though so perhaps we need to be telling women this is the right way to challenge if they feel they need to?

It’s the proving it that worries me. I can’t without lifting my top or dropping my trousers.

Men, however they identify, need to self exclude from female single sex facilities. They need to have some decency and some shame, that’s all there is to it. The idea that vast numbers of us don’t actually know our sex, or that women who look a bit masculine will be abused by other women, is another smokescreen for the men’s sexual rights movement that is transgenderism.

How often do I have to explain, the being in a space that they are not supposed to be in, is where the harm starts. It is deliberately transgressing boundaries for many reasons. One is for the thrill, one is because they want to intimidate female people, one is just to see what they can get away with. There are many reasons.

It starts with being there.

It makes me safer because I'm not made to feel too intimidated to ask.

Safeguarding is vital. I'm a carer and due to random checks I've been DBSd more times more times than you would believe. Do I complain? No I don't. I am more than happy to comply with the system - in fact, due to horrendous abuse committed by other carers I would welcome more intrusive measures such as much stricter supervision for all and frequent spot checks, client permission withstanding.

I would never dream of harming anyone I care for. You're a woman in the correct single-sex space. The consequences of not asking are far worse than those of asking. I understand that you feel sensitive but a simple question doesn't hurt, it really doesn't.

I agree with you, men need to self exclude. It’s not a smokescreen though, it’s literally my existence.

I agree that I should be asked if I’m behaving in a way that makes anyone feel unsafe. If for you that’s my presence then ok, approach me and say that, then ask if I am a woman. I will say ‘yes’. Would that make you feel safer?

“If for you that’s my presence then ok, approach me and say that, then ask if I am a woman. I will say ‘yes’. Would that make you feel safer?”

For many female people, hearing your voice will help enormously.

A man knowingly, actively, consciously entering a space designated for women is a threat based on the very act of crossing that boundary.

Possibly, again from experience though it hasn’t done. Maybe I need to start humming/ singing/ pretending to be on the phone in toilets? Genuinely wondering if that would help if it’s about my voice, I’ve not tried it. I just don’t want to have my sex questioned so anything I can do to head it off before it happens would help?

Yes, because then I'd know. It's extremely easy to tell women and men apart so I don't know why we have to indulge such performative stupidity. Back in my clubbing days I never went home with the wrong flavour person despite it being very late/early, pitch dark and after a night of me getting a few too many bevvies down, I don't believe it was different for anyone else either. Brightly lit toilets are a breeze in comparison.

@Fannycrevasse I've always looked androgenous. It scares me.

Your first sentence is incredibly important.

There's not much being said about the fact women have been discriminated against unlawfully, across the board, enabled by other women, for the last decade. That has erased necessary boundaries.

So do you believe the women who have challenged me in the past have been doing so maliciously? That they didn’t genuinely think I was a man, they were just being cruel for no reason? Doesn’t worry you that that cruelty is therefore being justified here?

‘Shut up woman I disagree with, you’re clearly a troll because no woman could ever have a different life experience to me’ - my username is in reference to a previous post I made it for which was to do with a medical issue I’m experiencing after the birth of my second child. The issue is the opposite problem to my username, it’s what popped into my head when I needed to change my username and honestly? I was thinking of Fanny Craddock at the time because she’s one of those names that pops into my head randomly along with David Dickinson and Patsy Palmer, and it made me feel better about how personal the issue I was posting about was because I internally chortled.

Dismissing opinions different from yours doesn’t help further the conversation.

Same, I think I probably look androgynous to most people and that’s why not everyone feels the need to make a point about it, but then some decide I look more male than female and that’s when we have a problem. I think when people are hyper aware of trans people and are always on the look out, that’s when they clock me and those people and the kind of people who are awfully rude when they challenge seem to overlap.

@ExpatMum41 Anyone who disagrees with you is suddenly a man?
This proves my point, how do we prove we're female?
I've been called a faggot before when I was with my BF. I've had three children and I'm currently going through the menopause. Would I have to drop my knickers?

Why exactly is the responsibility for sexism and homophobia being landed squarely on the existence of women's spaces and desire of women to see them sustained? Come on to fuck here. Individual women night be sexist, misogynistic and homophobic and that should be challenged if possible when it happens - but it is not a reason or an excuse to diminish our collective rights.

This was brought TO women, by men.

I agree, I just want to have a piss in peace. Women should be responsible for their own individual behaviour and allow me to do that or, if my presence is causing them to feel unsafe, approach me in a polite, non threatening way and say ‘excuse me, I’m feeling threatened by you, can you please confirm you’re a biological female?’ And not call me a pervert or tell me I don’t ‘pass’ as I try to wash my hands. We don’t disagree.

I'm incredulous that one poster who feels women have been mean a dozen or so times in her whole life has been posting incessantly for hours completely derailing the thread and making it all about their own anecdata. Please Fanny, start your own thread about the nasty women who call you names, don't confuse it with the issue at hand which is men being told they cannot legally use female spaces. If you are a woman you will be fine using them, and changing it back doesn't make those women less likely to have said that to you either. Move on and think about all of the other women, just for a moment.

At least we've moved on to you permitting women to ask politely rather than not at all.

The two things are linked though, and I’m posting because I’m free to do so, like everyone else. Stop engaging with me if you don’t want to chat. Being asked to prove you are a woman more often directly impacts me more than most, of course I want to talk about it.