To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

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I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

I’m not suggesting we don’t challenge at all, I’m suggesting we challenge ANYONE behaving unusually in a toilet. It can be a completely micro thing you notice that pricks up your intuition to say ‘this person is behaving in a way I feel is threatening to me or others’ - I’m completely on board with that and would do it myself. What I’m defending though is my right NOT to be challenged if I am making every effort not to appear threatening or suspicious. That way, I have some control over the situation and can feel safe, too. I can wash my hands and leave without making eye contact with anyone and not be accosted. If I behave in a way that even interacts with anyone, then I can expect to be challenged. I’m totally ok with that because I can avoid it.

The abuse has actually gotten A LOT worse in recent years - I literally never had a problem before 2015ish. It’s not always in toilets and i have never once been approached politely and asked my sex, it has always been snide remarks or just outright insults like ‘pervert’ or ‘you don’t pass you know’ shouted at me as they pass by. No one has ever stopped to see if they were correct or not but I assume this is because they’re worried I’ll attack them. The reality is as soon as they’ve gone, I usually cry.

My experience is that many people cant. I am regularly misgendered even when I speak. Loads of us are.

Because it’s not a brief, polite question I’ve been exposed to, ever. A brief, polite question would be ok if I’d done something to warrant its asking. I also want to understand what my answer should be and why the answer in for that question would satisfy you, if you have been so confident that I am male that you’ve felt ok asking it in the first place? What are you gaining?

Your relative is lucky her hormone disorder has presented in a way that allows her to still appear female. Mine has sadly not. Her experience doesn’t impact mine so I’m not sure of your point there?

I'm going to bring this back to the OP as you've derailed it somewhat.
Would you be asking for women to be "tested"? Do you agree with what JV aired as the TW position on this matter? Because it sounds as if that is what you are saying.

I can only.speak for myself but there have been a few times I've seen someone amd wondered whether they are male or female. But they've usually.been sitting down and as soon as they stand up and walk it's generally pretty obvious!

But, tbh, I do agree with what you are saying about not challenging someone who is just getting on with washing their hands and not engaging or even looking at anyone else.

I've never done that and, tbh, I still don't think I would even after the ruling 🤷🏻‍♀️

I did once hang around in the toilets for longer than I needed because there was a TW who was also hanging around for longer than he needed and a young woman came in just as I was about to leave. But I wouldn't say anything myself unless I really felt I had to!

But you say it got worse after 2015 which would coincide with a lot of what people have been talking about and the great 'invasion' of TW into women's spaces. If that had never happened, presumably it wouldn't have got worse for you? So you're just as much a 'victim' of the TRAs as any other woman. Not the women who pushed back against it.

I have not once defended men in women’s spaces, I have repeatedly said I agree that this is wrong. Thank you for pointing out even when you cannot see me, you think my ‘tone’ is male. Please tell me how I should type like a female?

I have pretty poor eyesight. I judge by voice and by skeletal movements and gait.

I would suggest your evidence is anecdotal and not through scientific studies that women are not likely to correctly identify your sex. And I am not denying your experiences at all.

However, you don’t seem to recognise boundary encroachment as harmful so you perhaps also have a bias here that means others could be harmed if female people remained quiet as you want them to.

It's the responding to everyone repeatedly and doggedly stating your position over and over like a sledgehammer. You've been going for 24hrs now I think. Outraged and non-empathetic. Very male way to interact.

No, I would not ask women to be tested. I would also not advocate anyone who is behaving normally in a toilet should be challenged by anyone else. I think the SC ruling is right and clarifies the law for some use cases, but access to toilets isn’t one of them. A man can still legally enter a woman’s toilets regardless of what they are wearing. This has not changed and therefore challenging people doesn’t achieve anything at all UNLESS it serves to interrupt or call out BEHAVIOUR.

No one has yet answered my question: what is the hoped outcome of you asking someone who is washing their hands and leaving whether or not they are a man? What is the pay off considering the harm you could potentially be doing? What are you gaining?

It’s a topic I’m very passionate about for obvious reasons, but it’s good to know you believe women should all communicate the same way.

Maybe you can start your own thread on that then.

I'm gaining reassurance of my own safety and comfort, that's what I'm gaining. I'm not going to override my own concerns and keep quiet. I suppose I'd be called selfish for that as though the other person isn't being selfish in not only putting their own comfort first but expecting me to prioritise their possible upset over my own.

With respect you are denying my experience by insisting you would know my sex by sight, when anecdotal evidence (what other evidence is there in this situation??) suggests otherwise. Even on this thread I’ve now been told I type like a man despite the fact I am a woman and yet still people insist my experience is invalid and ‘they could tell’. I hope you can all tell and you’re as good sex detectives as you all think because if you were, I wouldn’t have to put up with it.

Please can someone explain to me what is harmful, in the moment, about someone you perceive as male being in a toilet, washing their hands and leaving? I understand it crosses a line of that person is male and means some harmful men could also enter toilets but we have established, a man who means harm could be in there regardless of how he presents himself. So what, in the moment, is harmful about me washing my hands and leaving like everyone else? And what, by challenging me, is happening in that moment to mitigate the harm?

‘I can’t argue with this woman so I’ll tell her to leave, that will do it’

I am being selfish for using the toilets that correspond to my biological sex? How does challenging me or anyone else make you safer?

Being able to challenge anyone makes us all safer. That's why.

How does it make me safer? I’m not arguing you shouldn’t be allowed to challenge anyone who is behaving in a way that makes you uncomfortable (and the tiniest thing would be absolutely fine by me, I don’t mean filing or leering here). So, what do you gain by challenging me that makes you safer?

This is the issue, my existence is really problematic to all involved including me. I don’t know what the answer is, I just want to piss in peace and I believe I have a right to do so like anyone else. It’s on that basis I think we should challenge people based on their behaviour in women’s spaces of all kinds and not on how they look.

A man can still legally enter a woman’s toilets regardless of what they are wearing

The ruling was quite clear that this is not the case.

The harm is when it is someone who is male entering a female single sex space.

And no. I am not denying your experience that you have been mis sexed. I am however confident that coming from a family of tall women, and having many friends who are tall women with deep voices that I can trust my own instincts.

You are making blanket statements that are not factual. Some people have obviously correctly identified your sex in the past. Not every person mis sexes you. Yet this is your position , that no one can correctly identify your sex.

You are telling women to dismiss their instincts when they are concerned. This is exactly what the male people who have sought access to spaces they should not be in, have done.

Tbh, I agree with you on that.

It is not illegal for men to be in women’s toilets and never has been, a man who means you harm does not need to dress as a woman to be there (we established this earlier with the male bathroom attendant thing).

That’s the problem though, to reply like that would probably fuel their fire as due to a medical condition amenorrhea not all women actually do have periods and of course some women medically can’t or have made the personal choice to not have children so that’s not really a foolproof answer which the trans women would just throw back in your face. The problem is trans women are so angry they’re on a war path to twist what once was just not in any doubt as to what a ‘real’ woman was. It’s just getting so ridiculous fact they won’t let it lie makes me think that girls and women on top of everything else will now have another unnecessary battle on their hands fighting against this potentially harmful nonsense for a long time into the future 😬

I didn't hear the discussion, but perhaps the interviewee was trying to make a point. This is the kind of intrusive question they've probably had to deal with for years.

No, you have misunderstood. I am happy for women to trust their instincts and challenge me IF they are concerned I am a threat to them based on my behaviour, of course I am.