To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

[AlertMaker]

I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

“If I was in any way causing alarm then absolutely, come and ask me if I’m female.”

I don’t believe any female person should wait until someone is causing alarm to ask someone. That would be a mistake.

Male people with sex offence history too often show a long history of not being caught or challenged in their build up to committing serious offence. This type of thinking allows that.

Any male being in single sex space that is not for them is transgressing boundaries to their own benefit. Just being there should be raising the alarm in people’s mind. This is the success of the campaign to lower boundaries. Some people don’t recognise when their boundaries are being breached and when they should be alarmed.

Ok, so let’s walk that through. You approach me completely unprovoked and say to me, a biological woman ‘at you in the correct toilet?’. I say ‘yes’. A trans woman would also likely say ‘yes’. What do you do next and what do you feel you’ve achieved so far?

From my side, I am washing my hands. A random woman comes up behind me and says ‘are you in the correct toilet?’ The implication being she has looked at me and assumed I am a trans woman. Being assumed to be male is deeply hurtful to me, it is not the first time this has happened to me and it likely won’t be the last. I’ve done everything I can to make myself invisible, none threatening and even dress in male clothes so she doesn’t think I’m a trans woman (ironically), It’s not enough to make her feel comfortable though (I start to wonder what would be enough but I pocket that particular spiral for later) and i understand why she’s asking. I gather my feelings, resolve to cry about it later if I’m going to and I manage to mumble out a ‘yes’. No we’re looking at each other, what do you say to me next because you’re the one who’s approached and I’m not going to be able to, nor feel the need to justify further?

Ok, what about my boundaries?

No I haven't been tested as a Woman but I have been impregnated by a Man. Twice. Is that sufficient confirnation?

The chances of a male bodied person being in the female toilets is already minuscule, even less so that that male bodied person means you harm, so I don’t buy the idea that you wouldn’t feel the need to challenge is less trans women existed, there’s already so few.

So, women who don’t have periods or haven’t given birth aren’t women? I’m sure that’ll come as news to them.

So have I, I was still genetically tested to confirm I was female prior to becoming pregnant back when I was a teen. The absence of children shouldn’t call into doubt your femininity even if you can use it as confirmation.

No, but I think that periods and childbirth give you a straight A* in the Woman Test. I don't know what the other grade boundaries are.

I have periods occasionally and I have given birth twice. Women routinely look at me and assume I am a male. My A* isn’t doing a lot for me is it?

My position is that I would rather protect 51% of the population than the 0.1%.
It's what happens in healthcare - you can't "save" everyone.

“A trans woman would also likely say ‘yes’. What do you do next and what do you feel you’ve achieved so far?”

I have had an extra bit of information to assess from hearing a voice and more time to work out whether the person in front of me is male or female.

If I consider the person is male, as I have been abused by males with transgender identities before, I will leave. I might whisper to others in the queue that I think there may be a male in the toilets so they can make their own decision. I will alert security and let them know.

You making yourself ‘invisible’ is not relevant. I am sorry you are in this situation. Call out abusive people by all means. But please stop telling female people to not challenge people if they are not doing something they you personally consider alarming.

I have been very often mistaken as male until I was a young adult with long hair.

“A random woman comes up behind me and says ‘are you in the correct toilet”

So are you now saying that we should not even ask politely?

That’s not the maths - the maths is you would rather cause hurt/ harm to thousands of women on the off chance one might be male. The number of masculine women is far, far greater than the number of trans women who mean you harm. I am one of the 51% and you don’t feel any need to protect me.

Whilst I am very sorry you have such clearly masculine features, in my 45 years as a woman I have never ever encountered anyone like this. I imagine I am not the only one on the thread. So yes, in a medical world you would be ignored in favour of the greater need. That's life. I had to have an ovary removed because my cyst was "0.2 mm too small to be operated on" and I had an eptopic pregnancy because it blocked the egg in the tube which got fertilised. That has affected me for years and largely scuppered any chance of having more kids for me. I know what rules can do to a person's life. It sucks but maybe use the bathroom before you go out. It's a 5min of awkwardness or thinking ahead situation.

Ok great - so I’ve already established my voice is low and when upset I sound gruff. If I artificially made an effort to speak in a high pitch I would sound fake and therefore like I was hiding something. So now, not only have you made me feel awful (you may feel this is justifiable, I disagree but that’s ok), you have also alerted other people to my existence and put me at risk of further harm and also alerted security that a woman in the toilets is washing her hands. You have now alerted a man (assuming the security guard is male) to my existence and presumably your desire is he approaches me on your behalf and challenges me further? Otherwise why are you alerting him? I’m just trying to understand what your desired outcome is here.

I don’t think you should approach me as I’m washing my hands and leaving the toilets even politely, no. If I was doing anything even remotely suspicious then yes, approach politely. ‘Hi I’ve noticed you’ve been in here a while, are you in the right toilet?’ Then I’d know you’re approaching me because I’ve done something other than exist to arouse you suspicions and can then feel like at least I have some control over whether or not I’m abused again in the future.

No. The ‘only a few’ is not relevant in my view. I have been to regional areas in pubs and still encountered male people with transgender identities who were using the female toilets.

And did they wish you harm? You would probably assume I was male bodied by the way if you saw me in a pub toilet, especially if I’ve had a drink because i forget to make myself smaller sometimes.

And you have assumed that I am unable to tell the difference between a low female voice and a male voice.

So, you believe that their accessing spaces that they don’t belong in is not harmful.

And you keep telling me that I would not correctly identify your sex.

I guess if that if your starting premise, it is no wonder that you are receiving push back on your posts.

You don’t THINK you’ve encountered anyone like this but you more than likely have, we don’t wear badges that say ‘I’m not a trans woman’ or ‘I’m not a man’. I pass as male at a glance when I’m wearing men’s clothing and I find this is a lot less hassle than trying to dress ‘like a woman’ and being mistaken for trans on the street. I get called sir sometimes which is obviously painful but it’s usually when someone hasn’t looked at me properly, and I do wear a bit of makeup to prevent this. Most people if I’m wearing some makeup assume I’m non binary and use female pronouns to start with, or ask me what my pronouns are which I actually don’t mind at all, they are trying to be respectful.

Your second point is the crux isn’t it? I am a biological woman who is not welcome in women’s spaces because of the way I look. Kicked out of the tent and expected to give myself kidney infections lest a woman in a loo think im male and abuse me for her perception that im not female enough. For reference I DO plan ahead and avoid toilets like the plague, I also use the baby as an excuse to use the disabled loos a lot of the time when I’m out but it’s not always possible and I try not to block the disabled loos because I am not disabled.

Yes, I fundamentally believe that it is peoples behaviour that is harmful, not their existence, but I agree that there are spaces that should be segregated by sex. I do not believe it is proportionate or productive for the general public to accost other people in toilets if that other person is trying not to be noticed and is trying to get out as fast as possible. I don’t believe the presence of a person like that is harmful to anyone. Why would I?

Fannycrevasse

That sounds really hard and, tbh, no, I wouldn't like it. I'd hate it in fact.

It sounds like these women have been as respectful as they can be in asking but that doesn't take away from the fact its incredibly hurtful for you to be asked.

I don't disbelieve you but I'm amazed that, in the recent climate, anyone would ask given that there could be no 'wrong' toilet given the angry protests of many TW and they risked being the ones asked to leave.

Tbh, it would be obvious to most people that you were a woman the minute you said, "Yes," whereas TW still sound like men. I also don't think that many would respond with a simple yes. Especially if dressed in male clothing.

But that probably doesn't help. Especially as you say your voice can sound quite gruff when you're upset.

I don't know what the solution is for you, personally. I can't imagine I could come up with a suggestion that you haven't already considered or tried.

So where does that leave us?

We can't just say that it's OK for TW to use female toilets because there are some women with hormonal conditions that make them appear more masculine and it's hurtful for them to be challenged.

Perhaps, if we hadn't been routinely prioritising men in women's spaces for the past 10 years, women would be less vigilant.

Perhaps if the government had prioritised some of the underlying causes of women being unwelcoming of men in our spaces (VAWG), rather than just forcing us to accept them, women would be less vigilant.

Perhaps if men just sorted themselves out and posed less of a risk to women of their own volition women would be less vigilant.

But that's not what has happened.

I have never seen a woman in the bathroom I felt I needed to challenge.
I have lived as a woman for 45 years and many rules have affected me far more than whether I can use the loo somewhere or not would do because there are multiple options available in every town.

Evidence would suggest you probably wouldn’t correctly identify my sex, as so many people don’t and unless you have x-ray glasses you’ve not mentioned, I’m not sure why you’d assume you’re better at it than anyone else? If you are though please, share your tips because I’d love to know how to appear less male.

I have a very close relative who has a severe hormone disorder. No one would ever mistake her for a man despite the facial hair etc, least of all me.

I'll turn your post round - why does your righteous pearl-clutching over a brief, polite question trump my right to exercise safeguards in women's spaces?

@Fannycrevasse you seem to be the only woman here aggressively defending men's rights to female places. I think we have all heard that you think women think you are a man, you are masculine in build and features and have been challenged a dozen or so times in your life because you look male. Your tone is also masculine, unfortunately.
I'm not convinced "being challenged" would be worth my time spending hours on Mumsnet with a view defending the right to endanger every other woman in the country. It is coming across as though you are overreacting to a few nasty comments at best. Women can be bitchy but you won't be raped by one.