To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

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I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

I agree with you, my argument is its not realistic though.

Absolutely- bloody brilliant. Thank you for pulling this together so clearly and eloquently.

I’m sorry for your experiences Fanny (and other women who have been questioned in any way that’s upset them), I think there will always be instances like you describe unfortunately. I don’t think you should put up with being questioned anywhere either, you have a right to be there and can vocalise this.. I would say that, IME, most women won’t question anyone in the toilets whether it’s a TW, TM or toilet cleaner (not sure if that’s this thread or not). Most women will just leave. I was sexually assaulted when I was 11 by a man (not TW) in a unisex toilet, he was able to push me back into the cubicle and assault mr because he was allowed to be there. I might well still have been assaulted in the women’s but he might not have felt so emboldened to casually hang out in there if it had been single sex. These predators blend in, they choose there victims and their hunting ground accordingly just the fact that tge waters are muddied helps give these men opportunity to be where they shouldn’t. So whilst I’m incredibly sympathetic to anyone being distressed by being challenged in any space, I would rather that than a man become unchallengeable in a sss. 30 years later I’m still very very wary in any place I have to be undressed or could be assaulted by a man. Good men stay out so bad men stand out.

God this is depressing. Stop jumping on my use of language, I mostly agree with you and I’m GC. The
more you jump down peoples throats like this the less sensible the conversation becomes. Just stop it.

I would rather that than a man become unchallengeable in a sss.

Spot on. So sorry for what happened to you.

The man who was jailed in my area managed to loiter in multiple female toilets and filmed 9 women and a child before he was challenged. It should never get to that point. Making men 'unchallengeable' absolutely emboldens them.

That kind of language is so silly though and so anti scientific, I think it's unsurprising that people are calling it out. I expect people have slipped into it without realising, but it's time to push back.

The sooner we get back to basic scientific principles here, the better. The gobbledook has been so detrimental to clear understanding and debate.

It is the new trans gotcha - legions of nasty women harassing other women who are , checks notes, tall, muscular, hairy, have PCOS, are bald cancer survivors. Nothing happened until shadowy rightwing billionaires provoked/financed GC women into a mass transphobia.

There is an incongruence with the language you are using, though, which is confusing for those reading who don't know you personally.

Assigned sex at birth is trans language that suggests it's impossible to know which sex category people fall into so it's completely arbitrary. Essentially, they flip a corn. Heads it a girl, tails.its a boy.

The GC/scientific position is that if a baby has male genitalia it is a boy and of it has female.genitalia it is a girl. No need for assigning. It just is.

Ironic really as the subtext suggests that males are a threat to women in SSS?

I’m not suggesting we make men unchallengeable. All I’m suggesting is if someone is quietly washing their hands and leaving the communal area of the toilets having not interacted with you or anyone else, maybe don’t shout at them that they’re a pervert? If I was hanging around, loitering, staring, breathing near you, glancing at you or trying to interact in any way then yes, absolutely challenge if you feel safe doing so. That way, I have a choice and a way to avoid being abused - I can avoid you (like I always do) and trust that you’ll avoid me, too. Right now though all the heat in this debate means I can avoid you as much as possible and still end up being abused which is harassment. I shouldn’t have to make myself as invisible as possible and feel fearful when I use women’s toilets and NEVER did until about 2015. Now though it’s an awful aspect of my life and it’s being driven by women who feel completely compelled to abuse me on the off chance I might be trans. That is not ok and you’re not ‘sorry’ for my experience when you clearly feel calling a stranger a pervert for no reason is entirely justified.

When I’ve been challenged, not once have I given anyone any cause for alarm. I’ve not even been looking in their general direction. I’ve been behaving like anyone else in the toilets (probably avoiding eye contact more, honestly) and yet your argument is it’s absolutely fine for women to abuse me and I shouldn’t be afforded any protection from abuse or right to live my life quietly, because my crime is I happen to not look like a woman to some other women. Your chances of coming across an actual trans woman in the toilets are far, far less than coming across a masculine woman.

Also it’s not just words and therefore harmless. I’ve tried to kill myself 4 times in 10 years (pre-children) because I’ve felt so completely helpless and cast out. I’ve felt I don’t fit anywhere and that I will have to put up with relentless abuse from women for the rest of my life. I even had a turn presenting fully as male and living ‘as a man’ for a bit to make my life easier but it felt so completely wrong.

When I had my first child it changed things because I mattered less and my kids matters more and I needed to stay alive for them, but the abuse has gotten so much worse recently and I’m terrified the SC ruling means it’s going to get worse again.

I just wonder at what point we decide abusing someone not giving us any reason for concern with their behaviour in a public toilet is more of a risk to them, than they pose to you and at what point it tips from genuine concern into just bullying?

I’ve made my views extremely clear here, i am gender critical and I agree with the SC ruling. I have no idea what is ‘trans language’ and what isn’t because I don’t concern myself with that level of side taking/ tribalism. A doctor looked at me and perceived me to be female when I was born, I was therefore assigned female at birth. That’s what I mean. I was not given gender testing at birth (although I have subsequently had some tests, one of which I think was chromosomes), but it was assumed I was female the day I was born based on the way my genitalia looked. That assumption turned out to be correct despite my hormonal struggles since puberty.

You are literally describing my experiences in my life as if they don’t exist. Please stop, this is incredibly dismissive to literally thousands of us who have experienced this.

You say you’re gender critical but your use of language suggests otherwise. The phrase “assigned female at birth” is very much part of the transgender lobby’s attempts to manipulate language to make people conflate sex and gender and think that this portmanteau concept is socially constructed and fluid. Along with pronouns and even the expressions “trans man” and “trans woman”, where trans is an adjective rather than part of the noun (implying that trans men or women are subsets of a larger category, like black women or disabled men are subsets of women and men), and other subversions of everyday language, this has been very successful.

As someone who has been corrected on quite a few occasions over the last few years for not using this “approved” terminology by people who should have known better, including managers at work, I feel quite strongly about it. I am glad we agree on other things.

The starting position that challenging someone automatically equates to abuse is bullshit.

I don’t think there’s anything unscientific about saying a doctor looked at me the day I was born and perceived me as female, then I was subsequently assigned as female from that point on. That assignment turned out to be correct (I happen to be a woman who has had genetic testing so I do know for sure. Just to clarify I don’t believe you need genetic testing to know you’re female in the vast majority of cases, but in my case it was deemed medically relevant to check my chromosomes given the severity of my hormonal issues). Saying ‘I was assigned female at birth’ does not say anything other than what happened, and I find it to be a useful shorthand of describing the fact I’m a biological woman, something I probably have to do far more often than you.

@Fannycrevasse “That is not ok and you’re not ‘sorry’ for my experience when you clearly feel calling a stranger a pervert for no reason is entirely justified.”
Excuse me? What? I am clearly not sorry for your experience when I clearly feel it is justified to call you a pervert? I think you have misread my post, please find me an example of me saying that it’s ok and that I am regularly in the toilets screaming “pervert” at anyone. Wow. Of course your pain is worse than an 11 years later old getting raped.

This has been lost in the last few years but 'assigned female at birth' is appropriated language from people with DSDs. It's been normalised to describe typical experiences and bodies in a way it should never have been.

Not what I’ve said. I’ve said challenging someone who is doing nothing other than existing is abusive, especially if challenging them means calling them a pervert while they wash their hands for no other reason than you thinking they don’t look female enough.

I have never once been challenged politely. No one has ever come up to me and said ‘excuse me, I’m just concerned you might be a man, can you confirm you’re female?’. That might be slightly better although still a knife to the heart in all likelihood. How people actually approach is to make a snide remark with absolute certainty that they know I am a man. They don’t ask.

I said in an earlier post, I just hope women challenge me kindly if they do still feel the need to challenge me more after the SC ruling, but my experience so far has been horrific.

Ok? I’m GC, it doesn’t mean I tie myself up in knots on the internet about the language everyone uses and I firmly believe it’s a massive distraction from the actual point.

I’ll state it as clearly as I can:

I don’t believe the SC ruling protects women from men who mean them harm and that these men will always find a way to access female spaces to harm women.

I believe the SC ruling is just and the correct outcome.

I don’t believe we should be habitually ‘challenging’ people we don’t think look female enough in toilets if their behaviour is typical, avoidant and none confrontational. My personal experience of this has defined my entire life, and I believe the risk of harm outweighs the potential for good.

I believe in biological sex, and I also believe everyone is free to wear what they like and be called whatever they like in society, but that someone’s gender presentation should not afford them any legal rights or accesses reserved for the opposite sex.

Im not arguing that male bodies belong in female spaces, im arguing that the chances of you encountering a trans woman who means you harm are minuscule compared to the chances you will encounter either a trans woman who does not mean you harm, or overwhelmingly more likely, a woman who has traits you perceive to be masculine, like me.

If that doesn’t make me GC then.. ok? I’m not sure kicking me and my views out of yet another tent matters at this point? I’m not feminine enough for some women to consider me a female, I’m not critical enough for some women to consider me gender critical, is there any other clubs you’d like to exclude me from or are we ok now?

The problem with Jeremy Vine is that it’s designed to make people bite and put across the most controversial point of view and rile people up that don’t have a complete picture. I actually called in once and instead of responding to my point, Jeremy shared a story that just seemed to miss the point entirely and it felt like he had prepared to say that no matter what the caller had said to steer the conversation in to a certain direction.

I completely disagree that women shouldn't challenge anyone in the women's toilets. Keep your head down ladies, ignore a possible breach of your spaces and boundaries - no. Women have the right to speak out. The duty even.

And I am sorry for your past experiences but you don't know what other women have gone through. It's not fair to try to use them to shut down the debate.

I’m part of a support group with 20,000 members nationally that consists of women who have severe hormonal disorders, there’s bloody loads of us. You’ve probably seen many of us and assumed we’re trans women.

I am a lady who keeps my head down and you seem to believe you still have the right to pick on my biggest insecurities even if I haven’t even looked in your direction. What makes your right to righteous indignation more important than my right to live peacefully without fearing harassment all the time? If I was in any way causing alarm then absolutely, come and ask me if I’m female. If I’m washing my hands, there for about 30 seconds and clearly about to leave though? Really?

No one should be abusive. And, of course, call someone a pervert is abusive if they are not acting in that way.

However, someone politely asking someone if they are in the correct toilet is not abuse as you say. People looking at another person with concern is not abuse.

So, yes. Women should challenge anyone who they feel may not be female in that space. And wouldn’t it be really nice if we had the confidence that no more male people would be there at all so we never felt the need to ask?

No, but only women have periods and give birth.

I don’t want to exclude you from anything. I made some points about your use of language and its implications.