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to not understand why Christians think Jesus died for our sins?

1000 replies

switcheroooo · 20/04/2025 10:06

If Jesus died for everyone's sins, does that mean people are not accountable for their actions? You can kill people, steal and lie but have a protected status because Jesus died for your sins.

How does this work? Why are people not responsible for their own sins? Where is the justice?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 19:26

Grammarninja · 21/04/2025 19:04

I guess it's all about the motivation. Are you seeking 'justice' so that the person who has wronged you, suffers, or are you hoping to prevent another wrongful act? I think the difference in motivation has an impact on the pursuer of justice.

I think the people who campaign are seeking to prevent another wrongful act.

It can also be justice to want someone to go to jail because they killed someone close to them.

OP posts:
vdbfamily · 21/04/2025 19:48

OfTheNight · 21/04/2025 19:21

Could I ask an honest question that sort of relates to this?

I read this article, about prayers being said for Myra Hindley. https://www.indcatholicnews.com/news/13178
Someone I know lost their child in 2006. At the time they were a practicing catholic family. The child was young and had never done anything wrong,
Other than when the child was illl and immediately after they died, there have been no prayers for them.
I find this really conflicting and difficult to understand.It seems like Hindley is more ‘deserving’.

I do have a close friend who is a practicing catholic and she very kindly talked through her understanding which is that Hindley is a demonstration of the idea of redemption. I just wondered how other Christian’s feel about this challenging idea?

I hope this is taken in the spirit of genuine curiosity. I appreciate that faith can be a beautiful part of people’s lives so no disrespect. I’m a pagan if anyone wonders.

The teaching I grew up with is a bit different to the Catholic teaching and practice of having to baptise ill babies so that if they die they go to heaven.
I was taught that there is an age of responsibility and younger than that you would not be held accountable spiritually. It is around 12 which is similar in Jewish tradition when a Bar Mitzvah would happen. My understanding is also that baptism is symbolism that replaced circumcision and in itself does no magic but it's symbolic of dying to self and new life in Christ. So personally I do not think a baby/ young child is held morally accountable for anything they have done wrong.
I do not pretend to know what will happen on judgement day but I know my God is fair and just and am happy to leave such things in His hands🙂

Parker231 · 21/04/2025 20:04

vdbfamily · 21/04/2025 19:48

The teaching I grew up with is a bit different to the Catholic teaching and practice of having to baptise ill babies so that if they die they go to heaven.
I was taught that there is an age of responsibility and younger than that you would not be held accountable spiritually. It is around 12 which is similar in Jewish tradition when a Bar Mitzvah would happen. My understanding is also that baptism is symbolism that replaced circumcision and in itself does no magic but it's symbolic of dying to self and new life in Christ. So personally I do not think a baby/ young child is held morally accountable for anything they have done wrong.
I do not pretend to know what will happen on judgement day but I know my God is fair and just and am happy to leave such things in His hands🙂

Why do you think your god is fair?

ThaTrìCaitAgam · 21/04/2025 20:15

I strongly believe you can only be held accountable for your own actions and behaviour as an adult. Nobody else. I’m not responsible for anyone else’s either. And never without consent either.

Grammarninja · 21/04/2025 20:18

ThaTrìCaitAgam · 21/04/2025 20:15

I strongly believe you can only be held accountable for your own actions and behaviour as an adult. Nobody else. I’m not responsible for anyone else’s either. And never without consent either.

Agreed. Is your user name supposed to mean 'I have three cats' ?

UndertheCedartree · 21/04/2025 20:26

I understand the point is that as a Christian you would not want to commit sins and would be truly sorry if you did. I don't think forgiveness let's you off the hook at all. You'd still feel guilty.

What I don't understand is why did Jesus need to die 'for our sins'. No-one has ever been able to explain this to me. Why does someone need to die to forgive sins? Why not just forgive them if the person is sorry? People say the price of sin is death. Why? I don't feel the need to kill or hurt anyone before forgiving someone. Why does God?

laraitopbanana · 21/04/2025 20:35

Maybe read the book?

laraitopbanana · 21/04/2025 20:36

UndertheCedartree · 21/04/2025 20:26

I understand the point is that as a Christian you would not want to commit sins and would be truly sorry if you did. I don't think forgiveness let's you off the hook at all. You'd still feel guilty.

What I don't understand is why did Jesus need to die 'for our sins'. No-one has ever been able to explain this to me. Why does someone need to die to forgive sins? Why not just forgive them if the person is sorry? People say the price of sin is death. Why? I don't feel the need to kill or hurt anyone before forgiving someone. Why does God?

Because God can’t be in the presence than « less than perfect », no one is perfect, and the prize to be Christians is to be with God for eternal life. So without Jesus, there would be no one succeeding.

MargaretThursday · 21/04/2025 20:57

@OfTheNight

A few of things.
Firstly: This is what's reported. It makes a far better eye-catching headline that "prayers were said for Myra Hindley" than "prayers were said for local prisoners".
I'm sure you've been in the situation where you've seen the report afterwards and they've picked a tiny bit you didn't really notice that has been the headline.
I once heard Desmond Tutu preach. He gave an amazing 40 minute sermon, and the headline afterwards misquoted one sentence giving it a totally different meaning to what it had meant in context.

Then, she's a high profile prisoner. So her name will come up and be remembered. Perhaps people feel that by praying for the worst prisoner they can think of that it will show how forgiving they are? It's not that she's seen as more deserving at all.

With your friend, I assume you're talking about prayers in church. My dm is a lay reader (CofE). It's something she struggles with when doing intercessions. At what point do they take them off the prayer list etc? She doesn't want to upset people, but if they don't cut back the list of people just keeps increasing.

Having an elderly church, they can easily have 20 people on the prayer list each week for illnesses, another 30+ who died "at this time" etc.
It feels unfair to drop someone off the 30+ who "died at this time" because they don't have a relative coming to church, but the church has been around now for 150 years and the list increases each year - and being a small village, you do get the person who comes each year to hear their grandmother's name who died in 1923 and will be upset if they aren't prayed for.

Then you get people who will always have something they want to have prayer for - my favourite when I was doing a weekly prayer list was the person who wrote in every week with such delights as "please pray for X as she has no one to take her shopping this week" (aka please can someone volunteer) and "please pray for X who felt a little unwell on Monday and is now feeling better" (does she want prayer to feel unwell again?)
And then you know when you have several similar to the above that A, who has terminal cancer is trying new treatment this next week, B has broken their hip and C's son was in a skiing accident and still is in a coma - but they haven't asked, although you know they'd appreciate it.
So what do you do? Do you put the squeaky wheel in, who will almost certainly be upset if you don't, or the people who seem to be more urgent?

It's a really difficult one.
With your friend I'd guess she's fallen off the bottom of the list, if that makes sense. It isn't that she's seen as less deserving, more that it's not an immediate need or a specific reason. There's no reason why she should be prayed for this Sunday for her rather than last Sunday or next Sunday. So she doesn't exactly get forgotten, but she's not top priority because it won't be any different next week... and next week...

From what I can tell from the article, prayers were said because it was "prisoners' Sunday". If, for example, they had a bereaved parents' Sunday, then I'd expect your friend to be prayed for.

As well it may be a case of a little bit of "out of sight out of mind" too. If she wants prayer, then maybe she does need to say "I'd like prayer next Sunday because it's the 5th anniversary" or whatever. Because I can be sure people haven't forgotten that it happened, but they won't have the dates in their head to remember times like that, nor will it ever seem urgent as it was during the time he was ill.

Also, although the prayers may not have been said in church, people may well still be praying.
I have a list of people in my head, some of whom I knew well, some I never knew, that I pray for when I have time, often on my commute to work.
There was the lady I passed on a bus over 25 years ago, covered in blood. I got off at the next stop, but never found her. The man who gave me £5 when dd1 was a toddler because he heard me say I couldn't afford something and his family was all abroad and he hadn't seen them for 3 years, and he was lonely. My friend whose husband died in a freak accident, another who has a long term progressive illness; the couple who I know long for a baby, but probably now are too old, and an online friend whose son is seriously ill etc
None of them know they're prayed for, but I do.

I'm not sure if that answers you. Hope it does a little.

UndertheCedartree · 21/04/2025 21:19

Unsquaredancer · 20/04/2025 11:07

So it's fine to insult Christians on their most holy day rightho!

Love how to see how that pans out for Muslims at Eid, Jews at Passover and Hindus at Diwali.

No wonder Reform is gaining traction.

I'm pretty sure the Christian God is big enough to handle the 'insult' which seems to be asking questions. If asking questions makes Reform gain traction that just shows the ignorance of Reform supporters, tbh.

ZoggyStirdust · 21/04/2025 21:26

CottonPyjamas · 20/04/2025 10:38

I did an access course in Christian Theology years ago before going on to my degree in a different humanities course. This is my understanding of this... The sin of Adam and Eve was so great that the chasm created between them and God could not be breached by any human, but it was a human that needed to be able to fix it. No humans at this point could go to Heaven. God still loved humans and wanted to be able to fix it, and so He sent Jesus who is wholly human and wholly God as a sacrifice to fix that chasm. Humans can now go to Heaven according to their own actions. I hope I've remembered correctly.

Who made this rule that god had to adhere to? If god has someone he is answerable to, domes that not mean he isn’t all powerful? If he is all
powerful why make that rule?

doesnt make sense

ZoggyStirdust · 21/04/2025 21:28

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 11:47

No need to be sorry. I just know that what is a good person wildly varies from person to person.

I doubt your interpretation is being a good person has a much higher bar than any religious one. That is impossible unless you know every single religious person and have seen every single aspect of their behaviour and conduct.

I think it does mean a higher bar though. Christians so good so they can get a reward (heaven). Atheists do good for no reward, just because it’s the right thing to do

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 21:33

ZoggyStirdust · 21/04/2025 21:28

I think it does mean a higher bar though. Christians so good so they can get a reward (heaven). Atheists do good for no reward, just because it’s the right thing to do

I am sure Christians do good because it is also the right thing to do. Doing good usually feels intrinsically good regardless of faith or lack of faith.

https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2023/doing-good-and-feeling-good-relationships-between-altruism-and-well-being-for-altruists-beneficiaries-and-observers/

Doing Good and Feeling Good: Relationships Between Altruism and Well-being for Altruists, Beneficiaries, and Observers

The World Happiness Report is published by the Wellbeing Research Centre at the University of Oxford, in partnership with Gallup, the UN Sustainable Development Solutions Network and an independent editorial board.

https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2023/doing-good-and-feeling-good-relationships-between-altruism-and-well-being-for-altruists-beneficiaries-and-observers/

OP posts:
toxic44 · 21/04/2025 21:34

CottonPyjamas · 20/04/2025 10:38

I did an access course in Christian Theology years ago before going on to my degree in a different humanities course. This is my understanding of this... The sin of Adam and Eve was so great that the chasm created between them and God could not be breached by any human, but it was a human that needed to be able to fix it. No humans at this point could go to Heaven. God still loved humans and wanted to be able to fix it, and so He sent Jesus who is wholly human and wholly God as a sacrifice to fix that chasm. Humans can now go to Heaven according to their own actions. I hope I've remembered correctly.

If God wanted to fix it, what was the obstacle when God is omnipotent? I can't believe in the justice that every human is considered guilty of the original sin.

ZoggyStirdust · 21/04/2025 21:36

toxic44 · 21/04/2025 21:34

If God wanted to fix it, what was the obstacle when God is omnipotent? I can't believe in the justice that every human is considered guilty of the original sin.

Exactly. Either god makes the rules or he doesn’t. If he does, it’s his fault. If he doesn’t, who does?

KeepHopeful · 21/04/2025 21:40

Jesus's mission on Earth and sacrifice on the cross is too big a thing to describe in a few lines, but.......

The Protestant interpretation of the Bible says that Christ's death on the Cross gives forgiveness of all sins, past present and future, subject to conditions.
We are saved by grace through faith, and the moment we trust in Christ, we are made right with God. Our sins, including our future sins, were ultimately forgiven (Colossians 2:13), and our salvation is permanent.

“We have been justified through faith” (Romans 5:1). When God justifies us, He declares us to be righteous. We still sin, but God’s declaration stands. The fact of our justification argues for the fact that our future sins are forgiven.

This article explains it well:
https://www.gotquestions.org/future-sins-forgiven.html

If you search on "forgiveness of sins" or "exchange on the Cross", on the Web or YouTube, you'll find plenty of information about it. You can read the Bible or listen to it free on there, or borrow from local libraries.

Feel free to PM me if you feel inclined. (Three dots at top of this comment).

How can I know that my future sins are forgiven? | GotQuestions.org

How can I know that my future sins are forgiven? Are all of our past, present, and future sins forgiven the moment we receive Christ as Savior?

https://www.gotquestions.org/future-sins-forgiven.html

UndertheCedartree · 21/04/2025 21:40

laraitopbanana · 21/04/2025 20:36

Because God can’t be in the presence than « less than perfect », no one is perfect, and the prize to be Christians is to be with God for eternal life. So without Jesus, there would be no one succeeding.

That still makes no sense to me. God decides people can't be in his presence because they are imperfect but then decides they can but only if he kills his son. Why would you do that? Personally, I don't think it is something a loving God would do.

KeepHopeful · 21/04/2025 21:54

UndertheCedartree · 21/04/2025 21:40

That still makes no sense to me. God decides people can't be in his presence because they are imperfect but then decides they can but only if he kills his son. Why would you do that? Personally, I don't think it is something a loving God would do.

God so much loved the people He chose to create -

John 3:16

New King James Version

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Read full chapter

God knew that His Son would be resurrected. The sacrificial death was only temporary.

Bible Gateway passage: John 3 - New King James Version

The New Birth - There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with h...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203&version=NKJV

toxic44 · 21/04/2025 21:55

ZoggyStirdust · 21/04/2025 21:36

Exactly. Either god makes the rules or he doesn’t. If he does, it’s his fault. If he doesn’t, who does?

Do you recall a popular conundrum from the 70s - 'Can an omnipotent God make a stone so heavy He cannot lift it? If not, what is omnipotence?'

ZoggyStirdust · 21/04/2025 22:07

KeepHopeful · 21/04/2025 21:54

God so much loved the people He chose to create -

John 3:16

New King James Version

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Read full chapter

God knew that His Son would be resurrected. The sacrificial death was only temporary.

But why did he have to do that? Who made the rules?

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 22:15

KeepHopeful · 21/04/2025 21:54

God so much loved the people He chose to create -

John 3:16

New King James Version

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Read full chapter

God knew that His Son would be resurrected. The sacrificial death was only temporary.

How can God have a son? Surely He is beyond having a child. If Jesus is God why did He let himself die?

OP posts:
switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 22:16

KeepHopeful · 21/04/2025 21:40

Jesus's mission on Earth and sacrifice on the cross is too big a thing to describe in a few lines, but.......

The Protestant interpretation of the Bible says that Christ's death on the Cross gives forgiveness of all sins, past present and future, subject to conditions.
We are saved by grace through faith, and the moment we trust in Christ, we are made right with God. Our sins, including our future sins, were ultimately forgiven (Colossians 2:13), and our salvation is permanent.

“We have been justified through faith” (Romans 5:1). When God justifies us, He declares us to be righteous. We still sin, but God’s declaration stands. The fact of our justification argues for the fact that our future sins are forgiven.

This article explains it well:
https://www.gotquestions.org/future-sins-forgiven.html

If you search on "forgiveness of sins" or "exchange on the Cross", on the Web or YouTube, you'll find plenty of information about it. You can read the Bible or listen to it free on there, or borrow from local libraries.

Feel free to PM me if you feel inclined. (Three dots at top of this comment).

Even future sins are forgiven? So there is no need for repentance?

OP posts:
Parker231 · 21/04/2025 22:22

KeepHopeful · 21/04/2025 21:54

God so much loved the people He chose to create -

John 3:16

New King James Version

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Read full chapter

God knew that His Son would be resurrected. The sacrificial death was only temporary.

The idea of resurrection is only a belief (held by some) and not factual correct so it was not possible to say that someone would be resurrected - it’s a myth.

KeepHopeful · 21/04/2025 22:37

ZoggyStirdust · 21/04/2025 22:07

But why did he have to do that? Who made the rules?

God is Sovereign. There is nobody higher for Him to answer to. He made His own rules. Because of His love, He made the world, and the rules by which it works.

Disobeying His rules is sin and disrespect against Him. He hates sin, but out of love He forgives it when the required price is paid. Before the Cross, the price was the blood and death of an animal - because He takes sin that seriously. On the Cross, God Himself gave the greatest possible sacrifice, His only Son, to replace the need for repeated blood sacrifices.

On the Cross, Jesus gave grace, forgiveness and eternal life in exchange for our sins. That covered everyone who believes. It is once and for ever, whereas the previous blood sacrifices were only temporary and had to be repeated.

KeepHopeful · 21/04/2025 22:50

switcheroooo · 21/04/2025 22:16

Even future sins are forgiven? So there is no need for repentance?

Repentance is needed. To receive forgiveness in the first place, we have faith in Jesus and accept Him as our Saviour. If we love Him even a tiny bit as much as He loves us (He chose to die for us)! then we will want to try not to offend Him by our behaviour. We try, but sometimes we fail. We confess, decide to avoid repeating that sin, and ask and thank Him for His forgiveness.

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