The dilemma that won’t end

[kindnessforthewin]

different name and account as when app updated I couldn’t get into my old one, however, I’ve found the old thread here, it’s long but essentially with 2DCs under 2.5 I just cannot be the non stop support my DSis wants and she won’t get the message m: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/amibeingunreasonable/5216124-the-guilt-is-crippling-me?utmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=appshare

by way of update, DSis finally found a flat after realising I wouldn’t bail her out and let her live with me again (I had a newborn and 2 year old), and decided her time was up and she had to rent.

she rented……. On my doorstep. And that of her ex bf. Today I took time out of my day whilst DCs were napping at 1pm to meet her, and she spent the entire lunch crying about how triggering Easter is because we don’t have a family, how she bumped into her ex bf yesterday and it’s left her in pieces and how lonely she is.

since I’ve been back from our family trip (back for 6 weeks) she’s invited herself round at least once a week and I’ve had to tell her ‘no’ all but 2 times. I cannot explain enough to her, I do not have capacity for someone to ‘pop in’ or send me ‘are you around this evening’ messages.

yes in around this evening, like every evening, but 7-10pm (if I’m lucky) is the only time of the day im not running around after a 6 month old and/or 2.5 year old, a dog and the household chores. DC1 is at nursery 3 days a week and DC2 + dog home full time.

I don’t fancy putting my kids to bed and having another child walk in at 7pm. She’s almost 30 but what she wants is company, support, someone to take her pain away… every single week. Probably more if I allowed it.

I have tried to explain this but all I get I ‘I need you to be my sister right now’. Worth mentioning I’ve had her round for an entire afternoon and evening one Sunday, she was great, after me giving her home truths at the end of last year she actually played with DCs and tried to bond with them and helped a lot around the kitchen. Albeit she was still sat on sofa as DH and me were walking up to bed…never wants to leave.

second time I told her how stressed I was, we all were recovering from what we think was Covid, went on 10+ days, DH had final round presentations for new job he was behind prepping on and impending house guests arriving that weekend (a couple and their 2 DCs aka full on). Yet she called me the day after they arrived to borrow something, came round to get it and when she dropped it off same day, said she would pop in anyway. Again she was great, cleaned the kitchen and was helpful but again didn’t want to leave despite the fact we had guests. Zero emotional intelligence that I had explained I was so stressed with it all and still invited herself round.

the other 4ish times I’ve told her no……

even today 30 min before we were due to meet for lunch she said she’d locked herself out of her flat and called to come round. DH eyes rolled to back of head as we’d been up with DCs since 5.45am and DC2 was up several times in night for dummy run and DH feeling under weather…. I’d told her all of this when she messaged first thing to ask what time worked and I said only 1pm when DCs sleep. So she knew the reality of our day. I called back and said no point coming, I need to put DCs to bed and get ready and she insisted on coming just so we could walk together. Given she lives on the high street, where we were meeting I told her to putter around there for 25 min and she refuted asking what was she supposed to do on the high street for that amount of time. Tbh that would be my heaven but the dilemma is we have ying and yang lives.

In the end I text her to say literally no one can let you in, I need to shower and DH is broken and using his one hour child free time to lay in bed to rest before being with DCs this afternoon. Then she cried all lunch that I wouldn’t let her come and I make her feel like a burden. Of course I can let her come and sit in my house while I get ready but then it doesn’t stop there does it.

its such a dilemma because she’s so lonely, seems to not think she’s needy but is the most needy person I know, it pushes everyone away, including me, thinks she has the worst life in the world and seems to not want to sit with her pain and wants to come here regularly for company. I am on the short list and nothing I do or say will stop her relentless asking to come round. I had to work through all my trauma and sort my life out. I’m 8 years older than her but no one saved me.

anyone with 2 DCs and a dog will understand I have nothing left to give. My head is always exploding with stimulation and a never ending to do list. I’ve told her all of this but she repeats ‘I need you’. I don’t want anyone else to need me….. I need her to figure it out and give me some space.

DH thinks it’s a real dilemma and I won’t ever get through to her so shouldn’t even try. I get so stressed with her daily calls. Even around kids bedtime when I’ve told her 5-7pm is non stop for me.

Given her flat was only short term and up in July I said what a good opp to go back onto spare room and move further from ex (not on the same high street) so that would be one trigger less, and she said she doesn’t want to move because likes being close to ME. Again I said I can’t be what you need and she burst into tears again.

what do I do? Nothing is landing. My reality isn’t going to change. DC2 about to crawl and I’m due back to work soon…

So she’s a Negative Nelly mishandling her life.

The only thing I can think of is to put her to work. Be quite explicit that seeing you is conditional. “I am overwhelmed by how much I have to do. I can ONLY make space for you if you make yourself useful. Clean the house. Do shopping. Play with the children. Run errands. Whatever needs doing.” Insist on it and don’t let it drift into not happening.

Perhaps she would enjoy being a functioning part of the family. Perhaps it would actually relieve some of your stress.

All you can do is say, no I’m too busy- rinse and repeat.
it sad it’s come ti this , but you can’t pour form an empty cup.
and get your sister to therapy.

Gawd, don’t give her a regular occupation. She will just start saying “but you neeed me to do …”

It is totally reasonable that your priority is maintaining your sanity to be a good mum and you are clear that you don't have the extra energy for that. So you need to put some boundaries in place.

Boundaries are not something you hand to your sister and expect her to respect, they are actually an act of self-discipline for yourself.

How much time do you think you can put into your relationship with your sister at the moment? Decide this and then have a talk with her where you say something like "at the moment, as I am raising my young children and am under a lot of pressure I can catch up with you once a week, and I'll keep (Wednesday) lunch time free for us to do that, but I'm not goingy to be available at other times because I really need to focus on my kids". Also decide in advance how long you will spend with her over lunch. Then the hard part is that YOU need to stick to this!

Be prepared for her to cry/be upset, try other tactics to get you to move your boundary. Try to keep your tone warm and sympathetic. You can validate her feelings (eg say "I can see this is hard for you" and even "I'm sorry it needs to be this way right now", which you probably do feel, but you do not need to justify prioritizing yourself and your children - this is just how it needs to be.

Honestly, this is how you parent young children - you are kind, clear and firm, don't get drawn into discussions but just repeat the same ststemente over. You let them have their feelings and ride out their tantrum but you can't fix everything for them and it is not good for them if you try to do so - they will become extremely entitled.

You can block her number temporarily outside of the morning you are catching up with her. In your initial conversation I'd say "sorry I'm not going to be able to take calls forthe next several weeks as it is taking me away from the kids".

You will need to be prepared to politely turn her away if she comes to your house, just say "I'm sorry, a visit just doesn't suit. See you on Wednesday" and wave bye and close the door.

The goal is to communicate through your actions that this is the new normal and to remain warm, friendly and even sympathetic in your tone that you understand it is hard for her. You want to maintain a warm and caring relationship that is also on your terms. Imagine a small child wanting to play with something dangerous - you would be kind, and even sorry they are upset, but you simply cannot allow them to do that. In a way, your sister wants to act in a way that will destroy the relationship between you and she isn't mature enough to curb her own behaviour, so you need to do it.

Sadly people don't usually cheer with happiness when we start standing up for ourselves- they often ramp up difficult or emotionally manipulative behaviour, so if you do want to start a new dynamic with your sister it is a good idea to think this through fully and consider how you will manage her possible reactions and get really committed to this plan before you start. If you had the time/money to do a course of counselling with someone you trust to really break this pattern that would be ideal.

Tell her straight she needs counselling and she cannot be reliant on you. You are both adults and she needs to grow up. Point out to her that her extreme neediness is too much and leads to people avoiding her.

This sounds so difficult OP. What a hard situation to be in , you clearly love and care for your Dsis but it is ok to put your own needs and that of your family first . Agree it needs to be about boundary setting / what can you offer ? And stick to it. Like the idea of her doing things for you as a trial , that could be a win win

I'm going slightly against the flow here. I know how exhausting it is to be the one everyone turns to, to be needed all the time, never to feel 'off duty', but.... How do you think you would feel if you were her? Regardless of the fact she may have brought her situation upon herself, she has made poor decisions or whatever, it doesn't negate her feelings. She sounds pretty desperate actually, and very lonely.

It is absolutely the case that you can't, and shouldn't, be on call for her all the time, but how about trying to carve out a regular time slot for her every week? So she knows she is going to have your company/attention at that time and you know that you only need to cope with her at that time?

You say it is quite often in the evenings when she wants to see you - could your DH do the bedtime routine one evening a week so that you can spend a few hours with your sister at her place? She could plan for this time by getting together all the things she thinks she needs help with, or whatever she needs to talk about. Knowing that she has this time with you to look forward to should help her, I think, and you know that you can be quite happy to tell her that you are unable to see her/cope with drop in visits at other times.

You might find that it is much more relaxed, and even enjoyable, if the time is planned. You could have a meal together, you can concentrate on her just for a few hours, rather than trying to split your attention.

Goodness - the crying all the time at 30 years old! She needs some sort of therapy. Has the house been sold yet? Really hope she is not able to purchase anything in your street or nearby.

The crying sounds ridiculous and manipulative.

But its sad you can't find time to see your sister for a cuppa once a week ?

She sounds so demanding . When she asks if you are around this evening , reply ‘super busy and exhausted’ and repel every time she suggests coming over in the evening .

You are right to prioritise your own mental health and children. She will have to stand on her own 2 feet as an adult .

Totally bowled over that so many of you read the post and took time to respond. Thought it might be too long but so appreciate it. It is tough and spins around my head more than it should.

have read every reply several times and each one has helped. I have tried to get her to work at home and she has volunteered the last two times after I gave some home truths (after she asked to house sit when we went away as to kick can down the road and not rent)… challenge I find is she then wants to stay for dinner and down time in the evenings and more often than not I don’t know how I’m going to feel, I’d rather forego the help and have the silence in the evening. As mean as that sounds it’s my sanity. There is also no end, if I let her in she keeps asking. I’m going to take the advice of set dates with her, and somehow will try to explain my reality won’t change. What she needs is a plethora of single folk in her network keen for plans. When I ask her how bumble for friends went, she said she hadn’t bothered… I guess that’s what frustrates me, my house my company DHs company, a nice cooked dinner and a place to call ‘home’ is what she wants and she won’t take no for an answer; yet won’t do the leg work in other areas..

I think OP I would be tempted to go no contact for a few months. Tell her that you will not be available and that she needs to build a life outside of your family unit. Tell her you need space and that she needs to stand on her own two feet, get counselling and make an effort to find friends.
Either that or learn to get really blunt, ie you can come over for two hours after that you will leave and mean it.

I’m so glad you wrote that @Pashazadebecause that is my plan B to cut the apron strings. Seems words are falling somewhat on deaf ears.

@Trashpalacereally well written and measured advice, that’s exactly the approach I’ve decided to take as plan A. I’ve tried having her round to help, and while she means well, it quickly spirals. She overstays until bedtime and give it a day or two, she asks to come round again and will call me everyday in between for menial reasons. It becomes a cycle I just can’t sustain. Her loneliness won’t be cured by me, I’m just a quick fix hit for her and she needs plenty of them. She needs to take action herself to fix herself long term..

re fixing herself, she’s quick to put out her hand but rarely takes any advice.

I’ve been through similar trauma, the same dysfunctional family, deep loneliness, and I pulled myself out. She wants to enjoy the results of all that work, my stable home, my confidence, my kind husband but she’s not willing to do the work herself.

When I was 18 I went through an incredibly turbulent time, wouldn’t wish it on anyone and slowly pulled myself out but developed bad relationships habits, only to hit rock bottom in 2009 at 21 when my heart was shattered by bf who broke up with me. No one saved me, I turned to Google, read everything I could, and found tools that helped. I read famous dating book, ‘The Rules’ and an ebook about breakups that both taught core principles like not being overly available to anyone romantic, tips like ending calls or dates first to leave them wanting a bit more. Most importantly, it said if someone breaks up with you, just agree. Take back the power. I’d been in floods of tears when it happened and panicked I’d ruined it, so when I next saw him, I held my chin up and told him how much I agreed with the decision and then each time we saw one another I kept it short and sweet and walked off first.

Everything against my instinct but guess what, I felt so much more confident for it and the kicker was, a few months later, he came crawling back. It was the turning point for me that gave me a small win and the confidence boost I so needed! That period in my life changed everything, fake it till you make it, educate yourself and don’t be a victim.

It’s taken 15 years and honestly my children to heal me and in the meantime I navigated mainly healthy friendships (a new thing for me then), met DH 4 years after that rock bottom time, and a successful career followed after that. It’s all fallen into place piece by piece; even though at times, I am still broken inside. It’s a non stop work in progress.

She won’t talk to me about what happened when she saw her ex Thursday but I’m going to hazard a guess she got upset. She had not stopped crying all of Friday morning and throughout lunch.

I’ve told her for 3 years+ to read The Rules. Told her it changed my life! She’s gone through two breakups in that time, both of which ended up breaking her and in turn, becoming my problem, and she still hasn’t read it. On Friday, I suggested it yet again, she protested she wasn’t needy with her ex. Just refuses to read it, or anything. She was definitely overbearing to him, she parked herself at his for months. He asked for space and that was that. I also told her to look up emotional intelligence many times but she won’t look into that either.

The tears on Friday felt like her hitting a wall, a mix of loneliness, losing control, and feeling sorry for herself, but still not recognising her own neediness. I really think she needs a psychologist to help her understand why she struggles with emotional boundaries, intuition, and self-awareness. If something doesn’t fit, she just pushes harder.

You mention that you feel you had to work through some things yourself, have you explained that to her? I’m just wondering about the dynamic between you and if she sees you as someone who is just naturally stable and consistent etc, rather than realising you’ve had to work for it.

Does she not have any friends at all? Is this a new thing or has she always struggled?

I echo the other suggestions about a set time and date, ideally not in your house if it’s hard to make her leave. Dog walk perhaps? There’s a natural end to that.

Edit - cross posted with your update!

Can you suggest she finds a room in a shared house? Sounds like she needs to meet other people! A shared house would certainly be less isolating. Even if they don't end up being people she particularly socialises with, she would at least have occasional chats.
She needs some hobbies. Is there anything you could do together? An exercise class or art or language. That way you could see her for a set amount of time, but also be helping her get out and about a bit more. It might give her confidence to try things on her own. I realise you have your hands full! But doing something positive together rather than getting cried at might be better for both of you.

@CoraPirbrightit has not been sold, thanks for checking, we’ve had a few set backs but well on the way there. I doubt she will but i have said to her before I have concerns she will be 40 and still turning up at my door for a place to stay if she doesn’t manage her money better.

@EJ2i’d say on paper she is busy enough and has a few friends but has fallen out with entire friendship groups one by one. There’s hardly any left. One silver lining is she has stopped drinking as that was a whole other rollercoaster for her, and she exercises most days. Just on Friday she had 3 plans in one day but it wasn’t enough.

Yet she still couldn’t fathom the thought of pottering around the high street for 30 min when locked out.

The neediness is not a new thing which is why she is permanently in a relationship, so she is never on her own. She really needs to work through it this time.

Even after our lunch, DH walked down with DCs to get ice cream, then I took them to the park while he went home to get dinner on. Dsis came with me and when we said our goodbyes, we would have headed in different directions but she asked if I could walk the long way home to go her way and drop her off (it was 4.30pm) not dark. Given I had a toddler on the step, baby in pram and dog plus chaotic 5-7pm to get home to, I agreed. It’s just never enough.

Three plans in a day, not enough. Spending 3.5 hours with her, even through the tears, not enough, she wants me to walk in a different direction to accompany her. It’s needy beyond belief but also tone deaf, I just wanted to get my hungry toddler home.

Does she work? Sorry if I’ve missed that.

You sound completely overwhelmed and I suppose the risk is that you end up really snapping at her, or remain stuck in this dynamic. You can only really control your response as it sounds like she isn’t taking on board your suggestions and is just desperate to spend time with you. I’d probably just be as kind and honest as you can, and explain you’re at breaking point, you love and value her, but you need to look after yourself too. Pick something you can commit to, whether it’s a weekly phone call, a fortnightly dinner, a regular class or something, and mute her otherwise?

Do you say “no” clearly and kindly in the moment? Or do you go along with it and never quite say “no”?

@EJ2she does work. 5 days. It’s evenings and weekends she calls on me. The more I think about it, if she can’t even be bothered to read a simple book about simple dating laws of attraction like not being too available or any kind of literature about how to move on from a break up, like I did at 21, then she can’t keep putting out her hand. I’ve had enough! My childhood was worse than hers (7.5 year age gap) and I saved me. No one saved me. She ‘needs’ me because it’s convenient. She won’t help herself, if she did then there wouldn’t have been waterworks when she bumped into her ex. Again, I wouldn’t have moved onto my exes doorstep! The book would say disappear.

@Minglingpringleadmittedly between a lot of errrs and ummms and hesitation when she called to come round when she locked herself out I said ‘ok’ whilst she was selling to me why she should come round ‘I will stay out your way’ etc. when I called back to say no point coming it’s too close to our meet time anyway, she insisted she just wants to walk to my house and we walk together so I said ok, then I said you literally need to stand outside. In hindsight a firm ‘no’ would have been best, I thought a low commital 30 min might be acceptable but it doesn’t stop there…. I’m hoping this week she leaves me alone.

@meganorksshe has a flat mate, she found the flat on spare room, although flat mate seems mainly busy. I think a busier house share would be a nice idea and best as their lease is up in July, however she is quite fussy so I fear that won’t happen.

at nearly 30 I understand she doesn’t want to be in some of the student style digs young professionals move to London and accept but I’m sure if she put the work in she would find somewhere.

it doesn’t help ex bf owned his own flat and renovated it with promises she could officially move in then he told her to pack up and leave. The guy was a coward and horrible for leading her on. She must also recognise proudly declaring ‘I’ve not been home in months’ speaking of our old family home isn’t something to be proud of when he clearly wasn’t on board and ended it a week or two later. Ex bf before that subsidised most of the rent and she loved that flat. So her standards are quite high, even her flat mate now has the bigger room with in en suite and lived there first so also pays more rent, so she has a nice flat in a nice location.

honestly, when I moved to London I was in ex local authority flat with two friends, didn’t know any different, was just so excited to be in the city and working and at 26 it was a dream to me. She has made life very complicated and difficult, being in so much debt doesn’t help when she has had every opp to pay it off (see my first thread on that). Dad’s death and the sale of house will clear that but I don’t trust her not to run out of money by the time she’s 40. My biggest fear is her expecting me to carry her through life.

Just say ‘No, That doesn’t work for me me’ . Repeat as necessary.