The dilemma that won’t end

[kindnessforthewin]

different name and account as when app updated I couldn’t get into my old one, however, I’ve found the old thread here, it’s long but essentially with 2DCs under 2.5 I just cannot be the non stop support my DSis wants and she won’t get the message m: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/amibeingunreasonable/5216124-the-guilt-is-crippling-me?utmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=appshare

by way of update, DSis finally found a flat after realising I wouldn’t bail her out and let her live with me again (I had a newborn and 2 year old), and decided her time was up and she had to rent.

she rented……. On my doorstep. And that of her ex bf. Today I took time out of my day whilst DCs were napping at 1pm to meet her, and she spent the entire lunch crying about how triggering Easter is because we don’t have a family, how she bumped into her ex bf yesterday and it’s left her in pieces and how lonely she is.

since I’ve been back from our family trip (back for 6 weeks) she’s invited herself round at least once a week and I’ve had to tell her ‘no’ all but 2 times. I cannot explain enough to her, I do not have capacity for someone to ‘pop in’ or send me ‘are you around this evening’ messages.

yes in around this evening, like every evening, but 7-10pm (if I’m lucky) is the only time of the day im not running around after a 6 month old and/or 2.5 year old, a dog and the household chores. DC1 is at nursery 3 days a week and DC2 + dog home full time.

I don’t fancy putting my kids to bed and having another child walk in at 7pm. She’s almost 30 but what she wants is company, support, someone to take her pain away… every single week. Probably more if I allowed it.

I have tried to explain this but all I get I ‘I need you to be my sister right now’. Worth mentioning I’ve had her round for an entire afternoon and evening one Sunday, she was great, after me giving her home truths at the end of last year she actually played with DCs and tried to bond with them and helped a lot around the kitchen. Albeit she was still sat on sofa as DH and me were walking up to bed…never wants to leave.

second time I told her how stressed I was, we all were recovering from what we think was Covid, went on 10+ days, DH had final round presentations for new job he was behind prepping on and impending house guests arriving that weekend (a couple and their 2 DCs aka full on). Yet she called me the day after they arrived to borrow something, came round to get it and when she dropped it off same day, said she would pop in anyway. Again she was great, cleaned the kitchen and was helpful but again didn’t want to leave despite the fact we had guests. Zero emotional intelligence that I had explained I was so stressed with it all and still invited herself round.

the other 4ish times I’ve told her no……

even today 30 min before we were due to meet for lunch she said she’d locked herself out of her flat and called to come round. DH eyes rolled to back of head as we’d been up with DCs since 5.45am and DC2 was up several times in night for dummy run and DH feeling under weather…. I’d told her all of this when she messaged first thing to ask what time worked and I said only 1pm when DCs sleep. So she knew the reality of our day. I called back and said no point coming, I need to put DCs to bed and get ready and she insisted on coming just so we could walk together. Given she lives on the high street, where we were meeting I told her to putter around there for 25 min and she refuted asking what was she supposed to do on the high street for that amount of time. Tbh that would be my heaven but the dilemma is we have ying and yang lives.

In the end I text her to say literally no one can let you in, I need to shower and DH is broken and using his one hour child free time to lay in bed to rest before being with DCs this afternoon. Then she cried all lunch that I wouldn’t let her come and I make her feel like a burden. Of course I can let her come and sit in my house while I get ready but then it doesn’t stop there does it.

its such a dilemma because she’s so lonely, seems to not think she’s needy but is the most needy person I know, it pushes everyone away, including me, thinks she has the worst life in the world and seems to not want to sit with her pain and wants to come here regularly for company. I am on the short list and nothing I do or say will stop her relentless asking to come round. I had to work through all my trauma and sort my life out. I’m 8 years older than her but no one saved me.

anyone with 2 DCs and a dog will understand I have nothing left to give. My head is always exploding with stimulation and a never ending to do list. I’ve told her all of this but she repeats ‘I need you’. I don’t want anyone else to need me….. I need her to figure it out and give me some space.

DH thinks it’s a real dilemma and I won’t ever get through to her so shouldn’t even try. I get so stressed with her daily calls. Even around kids bedtime when I’ve told her 5-7pm is non stop for me.

Given her flat was only short term and up in July I said what a good opp to go back onto spare room and move further from ex (not on the same high street) so that would be one trigger less, and she said she doesn’t want to move because likes being close to ME. Again I said I can’t be what you need and she burst into tears again.

what do I do? Nothing is landing. My reality isn’t going to change. DC2 about to crawl and I’m due back to work soon…

Ugh OP this sounds exhausting. I feel sorry for your sister that she’s having these problems, but caring for another adult isn’t your responsibility and you must be so drained.

I’m not sure how practical this is, but it’s always easier to leave somewhere yourself than get someone else to leave. So, could you either meet her at her house or somewhere out and about? Make it clear that you have somewhere else you need to be at x time and leave when you say you will. That’s much easier than trying to get her out once she’s in your house and probably less likely to lead to upset when it’s time to part.

My grandmother was the absolute queen of getting people out of her house (‘it’s been absolutely lovely seeing you but I’m afraid I must ask you to go home now so that I can get on with xyz’) in this breezy way while locating their coat for them 😆 I’m sure people thought she was rude the first time they experienced it but over time just accepted that she was upfront, she never seemed to lose friends over it. But it doesn’t sound like this approach will work with your sister 😬

I think this may be your problem then. You’re not saying “no”, you’re reluctantly saying “oh, ok then”. But she’s not getting the hint.

You need to be extremely clear about when you can see her and when you can’t. And in the moment, if the answer is no, you have to say that clearly. You can do it kindly. But you have to do it. If you can manage to communicate in a kind, loving way what your challenges are and why you only have limited time, that is much kinder than stewing in resentment that she doesn’t understand.

Nowadays they call it “holding your boundaries”.

@godsmessageyour grandmother had the right idea! Honestly if someone doesn’t know when to leave I get antsy. Someone once popped in for ‘a cuppa’ and when I politely offered accepted a 2nd and 3rd cup with no signs of going. I politely told them I needed to get on and didn’t invite them back.

I think part of the issue is that she doesn't just want you to be her sister, she wants you to fill the gap left in her life left by her partner. And that would be tricky enough for anyone but you have a young family and she seems to have a quite needy model of what a partner should provide.

@kindnessforthewin How was your childhood? Are you the older sibling? Did you take on a caregiving role to her during your childhood?

I see so many similarities between your situation and my relationship with my DB. It was completely enmeshed, he was like an adult child who needed me to be ‘mother’. When I had my DCs he became even more of a nuisance.

Eventually an arranged some joint therapy sessions to break the bond, and it changed our lives. In fact, I barely hear from him now! He needed to learn that he was responsible for his own emotional (and physical) wellbeing and I had to let go of the guilt I felt, and understand that forcing him to grow up wasn’t me ‘abandoning’ him (as we’d been abandoned when we were children).

Your background may not be similar, but it really resonated.

@Anonym00sewhat is the age gap between you and DB? Yes I’m older, the original post is long so you likely missed it but i am almost 8 years older.

My sister and I had very different childhoods, both difficult in their own ways. I had a lot to deal with from a young age. Our dad had money when we were little, so we went to private schools, but he lost everything when I was 13. He went bankrupt and was on trial for fraud. During that time, my mum who struggled with alcoholism and poor mental health regularly got drunk telling me and my brothers that Dad was going to prison and we’d end up in a hostel. There was even a for sale sign outside the house as creditors reposed his assets. She also frequently overdosed, and from the age of 12, I was the one who had to call an ambulance. She’d either tell me in person or slide a note under my door.

This forced me to grow up very fast. My mum’s chaos (breaking windows, screaming fits) made me hypervigilant and deeply intuitive. I became incredibly resourceful to survive, and made myself as small as possible at home. I even used to dig through waste paper bins for used tights at school because I was reliant on the corner shop having them and if they didn’t, I didn’t complain (had no one to complain to), I adapted. These survival skills shaped me.

Luckily the court believed that my Mum had paid for work on the house with money left my her Dad and they took pity on 4 children, my mums poor mental health and let us keep the house. This was some 3 years later after it had totally failed apart.

By the time my sister was school-age, things had changed. Dad had rebuilt some wealth and most of the house was renovated (lucky her having her school friends over; I could never invite anyone back to the health hazard house that was our falling to pieces house). I think out of guilt and excitement to have his wealth back, Dad spoiled her. She flew first class with him abroad, he even paid for her friends to fly with her, got designer bags and shoes, and even had a credit card. I had no idea this was happening while I was away at uni.

She grew up entitled, and I think after Dad lost his money again, she had still been mourning the loss of that lifestyle, maybe that’s why she racked up £12k in debt and refused to rent, moving home multiple times instead and putting out her hand to me.

At one point, I offered to pay off the final £1k of her debt, only if she paid the first £11k. I even offered to help her balance transfer to a 0% interest card, and said I’d take out a card in my name if her credit score was bad. She didn’t act on any of it until I chased her months later and it turned out her credit score was fine all along. She never paid the debt off, and I had to pull back once my own financial situation changed.

There have been countless moments like this: I’ve paid for spa days, fancy nights out, helped her after breakups (including letting her live with me rent-free for 5 weeks), and still she has the audacity to say “I need you to be a sister to me.” I fear this will be a lifelong expectation of hers, yet she does little to help herself.

OP this has to stop, step back and protect yourself. You did everything to keep your family’s shit together when you were far too young for it and now it’s your turn to look after number one. Step away from your sister. She has to learn to be independent and you can’t help her if she knows you are there to fall back on. So rinse and repeat, no you can’t come over, no I cannot help with that. I love you but you need to do this for yourself.

OP Please look after yourself.

I’m feeling quite overwhelmed. I hadn’t heard much from DS since Good Friday, but today she reached out to borrow some shoes for her holiday. I agreed, and when she asked to come by, I mentioned it would need to be after bedtime, as I had just picked up DC1 from nursery and was in the middle of dinner (DC1 wouldn’t eat) and needed to put both DCs to bed (2.5 + 6m). I had also arranged for a neighbour’s daughter to watch the house so I could finally take the dog out, as it had been too hot earlier in the day.

So we agreed she join me on the walk, which followed the advice here to meet outside the house.

During the walk, I asked if she was feeling any better since Good Friday. She said no, that she cries constantly, still thinks about her ex, and feels devastated that he broke up with her shortly after DF’s death. I pointed out it was four months later and asked if five would have made a difference. She said it was the way he did it. started crying again saying her mental health is in tatters.

I suggested she consider moving away for a fresh start. We went in circles about her ex. I asked if she noticed any patterns in her relationships or if she might be putting pressure on them, but she rejected that. I shared my own past breakup and how, in hindsight, I now see the warning signs and that they are almost always there. I encouraged her to look inward to identify what might be going wrong. I also told her that long-term relationships take effort. I have been with DH for 12 years, and it is really hard! She needs to find out why things aren’t working. Anything I said she argued with. Put pressure on ex because she never went home? No he wanted her there and said x y z, he could have told her to go. What about that he didn’t say he loved her for 2 years? She said he was like that with every gf and she didn’t care and he acted like he loved her. I said it must be confidence, can she talk to her therapist about why she can’t walk away from these guys? She said she didn’t need to. What about her ex before, she said he would binge drink and go out until 5am even mid week, yet she was desperate to get back with him. Why can’t she see the red flags? Why can’t she walk away? Why is she the one chasing them. She just doesn’t see it as a problem.

When we reached my street, I paused to wrap up, but she kept talking and then after a couple mins she asked to walk down my street. I wanted to avoid this as she is edging closer to my front door but I knew she wouldn’t be coming in. Outside, she started crying again, saying she has no family to hang out with. I reminded her not to take my boundaries as rejection. She said it was not about me. She said she misses Dad, hates Sundays, and feels she has no base. I reminded her that Dad was part of why our lives were so messy, he wasn’t that much of a nice guy, but she said she did not care. I said us not having a base isn’t going to change, Dad won’t come back and suggested she join expat groups and meet other Australians, Kiwis, or South Africans in London, there are 1000s and they don’t have family to hang out with on Sundays either m.
She insisted she has friends and I need to stop suggesting these things to her.

I told her honestly that I cannot take this on. It is not just one Sunday; it would be every Sunday and then during the week. She cried, “I just want to be loved,” and walked off crying.

So my peaceful dog walk turned into all of that. Earlier on the walk, I had told her I had been up since 5:30 a.m., still parenting at 7:30 p.m., no dinner yet, and DH was out for the night. Her response was, “If it makes you feel better, I have been up since 5:30 a.m.”

there is zero meet in the middle here. If I give an inch she takes a mile and I was really cold to her on that walk. I worry so much she will never find happiness because she refuses to see where she is going wrong, refuses to help herself.

I asked when she bumped into her ex the day before Good Friday who walked off first, she said he did. Again if she read that god damn book I keep telling her to, she would have walked off first; even against all her will. She feels rubbish because she doesn’t have boundaries with anyone, she lets them walk all over her and she doesn’t respect other people’s boundaries either. I’m so done with this. Part of me feels guilty and I’m genuinely concerned she might even do something stupid. The other part of me thinks I feel nothing and just need to walk away.

I know I sound harsh but honestly I’ve built my life and I can’t adopt her. She doesn’t see that she is so needy. I get she’s desperate but she won’t help herself. She just wants IN on my family. But he’s my family. I don’t need her buzzing around me wanting in on my house, my life, I need her to sort hers and she thinks she broken beyond repair.

I honestly think he housemate is not helping. She goes home to her parents every week almost. Lives in a beautiful huge immaculate mansion, which my sister has seen as she went round to get a key. I think it’s part of her demise recently.

The thing is she repeatedly says “I just need you to be my sister right now” which is manipulative and, frankly, disingenuous because that’s not what she’s asking you to be. She is asking you to parent her. She refuses to engage in adult behaviour and constantly asks you to look after her in ways that are completely unnecessary - like walking her home in broad daylight in the middle of the day. She is repeatedly incapable of straightforward tasks. When men do this we call it ‘weaponised incompetence’. It’s deeply unhealthy but I also genuinely think that even if you agreed to every request, it wouldn’t make her happy and it wouldn’t be enough. It would just deplete you until there was nothing left. Not only do you need to keep holding your boundaries, you need to find a way to detach and make it less exhausting for you. You have nothing to feel guilty about.

I tried this tonight and she protested that she is not needy. I just cannot get through to her. She admits she is very lonely, feels unloved but she apparently was not needy with any of her exes. Honestly, if she wasn’t my sister I wouldn’t put up with this 2 year cycle of her life falling to pieces with every break up. I fear she won’t change and won’t find happiness. I will be expected to carry her my entire life.

Yes this make my blood boil. I have done so much for her over the years and she just asks for more and more and more.

I can’t change our family dynamic. I suffer too! What about when I’m unwell, I have to dig deep and parent every single day. No mum or dad here to help me. No PiL to run in either. We don’t get a break! Ever.

she is desperate for me to be the band aid while she is heartbroken and until she finds a new boyfriend. The tears of a family is all so get me to change my mind. I feel for her but she needs to change her life and she thinks she has done no wrong. These men have broken her. Every single one of them. She’s done nothing.

Message from my sister ‘Repeatedly telling me that you can’t be there for me because you have your own family is disgusting, I am your family, you should prioritise me’

I fear this is why her relationships fail. She cannot read a room. Nor recognise when she is draining someone.

It all sounds utterly, destroyingly, soul murder... I feel drained just reading your account... I can see how you're worried about this going on for the rest of your life!

You've tried numerous ways to get her to see, she's just trampling all over these suggestions and it seems her only wish is colonising all your time and your family.

I think it is really, really, time for drastic action...

Write her a letter say how exasperated you are, you CARE for her, you've gone beyond all that is normal as a sister... but this level has got to stop...

Going forward you can ONLY be available for x times a week? Perhaps not at your house... So you can escape easily... And keep to it...

Only manipulation, you can rinse and repeat... 'like I said, I think you need to be referred for psychology', I think it's good for you to go to x group...

What about; " I'll only see you next week AS LONG as you prove to me you've gone to 2 meet up (app) groups, go to the group for x on Sunday and do the y on Monday...

Whatever you decide... You need to really hold this boundary....
She'll through a mega tantrum. In psychology this is the 'extinction burst'... If you get really worried about her, I would contact her doctor and give them a summary.

I think you literally need her to actually refuse her to come through the door..." Like I siad sister you can't spend the evening here... Please go home, and I'll see you on x..."

Implied boundaries aren't working, a talking to isn't working, you've tried loads of things...

She knows that if she pushes hard enough you'll eventually give in, cos you're utterly burnt out with her behaviour!

She's your sister. Let her be part of the family. Sont push her away. Embrace her and let her help you.tell her she has to help out if she wants to come around.

The mistake you are making is getting her to come by when the kids are in bed. Let her come when they are awake and get her to much in . Make her cook and clean and take the kids to the park!

I would tell her bluntly that you have other priorities! She’s expecting you to parent her and be her therapist. She’s an adult but refusing to take responsibility for her own life. I would see her far less than once a week.

Have you read any of the OP's posts?

Her sister doesn't want to simply be a 'part' of the family.

She wants to dominate OP's entire life, and home, dump on her constantly, be put first, above OP's kids and DH, have the OP come running whenever she wants.

She wants OP to be her crutch to lean on at all times (until something more fun comes along). This isn't a healthy relationship, it is a total dependency, and doing as you suggest here will damage OP's relationship with both her kids and her husband most likely!

The sister is an adult - she should stand on her own two feet and sort her own life out. She's had the opportunity, tons of support of various kinds... and refuses to do this because bluntly, she does not want to. She enjoys the misery and neediness, she blames others for her situation every time, this isn't simply 'how' she is but who she is.

OP - have much tighter boundaries.

'Sis, I will meet you at X to walk the dog, at Y time'

DS: 'Oh but can I meet at your house'...

OP: ' I will meet you at X to walk the dog, at Y time, take it or leave it.'

If she pushes again, you hang up/stop replying to messages. Same response every time, just reiterate your boundary and if its pushed more than once, you end the interaction.

Do not put yourself into positions/situations/contexts where she can push for more - so don't go somewhere with her where you cannot leave independently of her for example.

I think you need to consider cutting her off entirely. She is utterly unreasonable and is clearly never going to change.

Demanding that she should come first before your husband and children? I just don't know where to begin with how wrong that is.

Have a friend in your situation. She’s 75! And the needy sister lives around the corner…. she is 85.
Family friends.
The older sister was indulged, but when friend came along 10 years later…. not happy.
My friend of 75 has a great marriage of 50 years, kids and grandkids. The older sister was engaged to the same chap for 50 years. She did became his carer for 10 years at the end in his home. He was well off and promised to leave her his home and money to say thank you. When he died he’d left everything to a distant relative abroad. The older sister was heartbroken but she’d been told all her life he was tight, and would never marry her.
The friend of 75 is at her wits end. Contact phone calls, demands to be looked after, telling her how lucky she is. This has been going on for 50 years.
Think long and hard about what you want to do here.
Your sister is clearly more than needy, she’s unwell. She doesn’t have your abilities to cope, and I’m sorry but The Rules won’t work for her.
Going NC may seem extreme but sit down with DH at some point and really talk about having a firm plan.

OP, your sister’s message “Repeatedly telling me that you can’t be there for me because you have your own family is disgusting, I am your family, you should prioritise me” is very worrying. She is actually asking you to put your own family - your helpless children who are so young, and your DH - aside in favour of her and her needs. Your sister really needs help - would she consider counselling? I’m afraid it’s going to have to be tough love from you: tell her that your DH and your DC are your priority, and that while she is your sister, she is NOT your responsibility. I completely agree with PeggyMitchellsCameo - if you don’t make hard and fast boundaries, she’s going to be a millstone round your neck your whole life, and your DH and in time DC are going to get very fed up with her. You are going to have to tell her straight: you cannot prioritise her because your priorities are your OWN family, and it’s absolutely not your responsibility to babysit her.

I'm so frustrated for you :( I have an aunty like this who did have a family and kids but has an attitude of woe is me and will find any excuse to feel incredibly sorry for herself, and has now become heavily delendant on alcohol in her 50s and 60s which has exaggerated her most toxic and maudlin personality traits. She needs so much from her kids and sister that they can't give.

To that message I'd reply something like "I'm only repeating myself because you keep asking me for something I have already said I cannot give you. I'm in a stage of life that is very blessed but also incredibly stressful and busy, two young children take so much of me as well as everything else in life that I have very little left to get me through the day, and I'm asking you to help me by accepting that I don't have much free time, and when I do its very very draining to be used as a sounding board or free therapy. I DO love you, and I really think if you take a moment to reflect you'd look back and know that I have shown that I do. But right now I'm asking you to love me by seeing how I'm hanging on by a thread at times and need the few half hours a day I get to be calm ones. I simply can't give you what you clearly need and are looking for, I'm your sister and always will be, and I'm so keen not to have a situation like this pushing us apart, but for that not to happen you need to stop making me repeat myself by repeatedly asking for things i cannot give you right now"

Don't reply to the message. Just block her. If you reply, then she'll reply, then you'll reply...

Never wrestle a pig.
You get covered in mud and the pig will enjoy it.

She's enjoying the attention and you're just getting the sh*t.

What happens if you don’t answer calls/texts - or send a message “can’t talk right now, busy will speak tomorrow?”

Honestly, at this stage, I would just block her. Your childhood sounds horrific and you had to become an adult far too early. Your sister was obviously pandered to and cossetted and, as a result, has absolutely no resilience. However, she is not your problem to solve.

You get nothing positive out of this relationship. She is using emotional blackmail to wear you down and this needs to stop. As she won't change, you need to stop giving her any opportunities to do this to you. She isn't treating you like a sister, she is expecting you to be her mother and to give her as much attention as you give your own small children. This is unsustainable and is making you ill which will have a negative impact on your children. Put yourself and your family first.