To be devastated by what DS has done or am I over-reacting?

[Acunningruse]

Short version: DS (12yo) sent a message to a family friend’s daughter (call her Lucy) saying “mate I don’t like you so don’t put kisses on messages”
😢 I saw this when doing a random check of his phone, hit the roof and have banned his phone for Easter weekend and given him extra chores.

Long version:
DS (12) has struggled hugely with the transition from a tiny primary to big secondary school. He seems to be trying to be the big I am, the cool guy.

We are involved parents concerned about social media and we check his phone regularly. I am concerned about how he speaks to girls in messages- less respectful than he is with boys. He had a girlfriend for a short while but when they broke up he and his friends were name calling her (a play on her surname, eg her Surname is Bank…) she messaged him asking him to stop and he was unkind. I discovered the messages and made him apologise to her and he lost phone and gaming privileges for a week.

We visited these family friends a few weeks ago and the mum seemed to be “pushing DS and Lucy towards each other. Rather than leaving them to just be, it was “DS and Lucy, you go to the shop together, you both sit here to watch a film…” DS was mortified by this and kept saying afterwards I don’t want Lucy to think I like her in that way.

Lucy text DS yesterday with pictures of their holiday and DS response was “mate I don’t like you so don’t put kisses on messages “

I am hugely upset by this to think he could possibly think this is an acceptable way to speak to someone. Lucy is a very sweet very naive girl (suspect SEN) who would have been devastated to read this. Im hopeful i managed to delete the message before she saw it (no blue ticks) but I can’t be sure. I don’t know if I did the right thing by deleting I just wanted to spare her feelings.

when we confronted DS he just kept saying “I don’t want her to think I like her in that way”. We talked about men and women being friends, you can put kisses in messages and it doesn’t mean anything, but he was not as remorseful as we felt he should have been.

we go on holiday today and this has completely cast a shadow over it for me. Im terrified we are raising some kind of andrew Tate wannabe-despite us being the strictest parents ever around his phone and social media. Not to mention we are going away with friends whose kids will all have their phones so DS will be an absolute nightmare sulking about not having his but we feel we have to do something.

parenting a pre-teen is all new to us (DD is 9) and every other day I feel like we are getting it wrong.

Am I over reacting? under reacting? I haven’t slept in days (sick bug in house) and I just don’t know what to do any more.

If you think about the reasons why boys feel drawn to Andrew Tate and the kinds of feelings they have that lead up to it. Such as feeling lonely, misunderstood, disconnected, angry with the world etc. You can understand why finding someone online who makes them feel seen and normal and perhaps even “high value” or “alpha” or whatever ridiculous terms that vile man uses could be alluring.

You sound like a lovely mum, you care deeply about him and others. You want him to be happy and avoid the absolute shit show that is toxic masculinity. But the answer probably isn’t to over-police him, but to understand him more and make him feel more understood. It’ sounds like you did that when you asked about the text message. But instead of being angry, next time perhaps open the conversation more towards how it made him feel and explore it more from his perspective (rather than Lucy’s). If he feels misunderstood and like his feelings don’t matter or are ‘wrong’ that’s when he may gravitate towards the Andrew Tate way of thinking.

I think he just worded it clumsily. He felt pushed together with the other child and didn’t like it. I think you need to validate his feelings. Not just protect the other child. It seems you went straight to worry about what the other mum thinks.

I am presuming that If the response to the text message has been this OTT then other incidents have been dealt with in the same way.

This probably goes back years where any tiny incident of him doing something that his mother perceived him to have hurt a girls feelings even if he was just defending himself meant some OTT punishment.

This type of thing is more likely to drive him to looking at girls being the enemy

He can’t speak to them telling them not to do something without his mother coming down on him like a ton of bricks

I think you’re doing great. You’re not overreacting but being parents and I applaud you for checking him phone and pulling him up on his behaviour. It’s normal for kids to go through this when the way enter secondary school, the problem arises when the parents leave the child to figure it out and effectively be raised by their peer group - they still need boundaries, rules and modelling. Do not allow him to have a phone after 8pm and I will not be allowing girlfriends either (my son is yr 7). Hopefully having switched on parents will keep him on the right path but do not let down your guard!

also, boys look to Andrew Tate and whoever else when there isn’t a strong male presence in their life. As well as having strict rules and switched on, you need to cultivate a home where the kids can come to you and you all spend time together as a family. Dinner, days out, movie nights.

As a teacher, and a man, I think this is a HUGE over-reaction. Your DS was blunt and to the point, which is a quality that can be both good and bad, personally I prefer directness (although I usually fail in that respect myself!!).

Maybe a gentle word about tact and diplomacy, but nothing more!

I’m not recognising any misogyny because there was no misogyny. If you are an unkind to someone, male or female, you might meet them later in life and they will remember your words. It might be in a romantic sense or it might be at a job interview. I remember a friend’s brother calling me a “f**king thick bitch” in the 80s because he was an unpleasant character whose parents hadn’t taught him any manners. I wouldn’t give him a job now.

If it was a girl then Mn would be applauding her. He was firm and put his boundaries in place.

op be honest, you are more worried about your friend than your son. Aren’t you angry that your friend was pushing her child onto your son?

I don't think you are over reacting at all. Him and his mates harassed a girl and she had to ask him to stop. Sounds like he's not old enough to have a phone and it sounds like he thinks females are just there to be talked to like shit. The other girls Mother is doing her no favours. I think you should tell her what he messaged, if only so she keeps her away from him.

I don’t think you are overreacting, nip it in the bud now, his response to the girls message was unnecessarily unkind, he is definitely demonstrating a disrespectful attitude towards girls
Let him know that you will be checking his phone more regularly

But it seems to me that she has been led to believe that by her mother's pushy behaviour and by the failure of the OP to put a stop to it. Yes he could have phrased it better. Like many others. I see the previous bullying issue as a different thing. Not a good thing definitely, but something that many children do once, receive a consequence for and don't do again. Its been suggested that it would have been enough to not answer the nmessages, but I am betting it would not. Probabaly "Lucy" would have been "devastated" not to be answered and her mother would have been calling out "unkindness" for not answering. No of course the can't approve of that message but is he a junior Andrew Tate? No!

Or she could just be a loving parent who has recognised a concerning change in behaviour in her son and is trying to teach him that his responses need to respect other people’s feelings. He can set boundaries without being rude or hurtful.

He has a right to how he feels - I would said bit brutal, she probably doesn't actually want to kiss you:) Who knows? Just never do kisses back. But he is right to ask her not to. She will be mortified but at least not so free in future with her xxx to peers.

You have to back off a bit micro managing him and over reacting. And controlling.

The step you wanted was ' mum, Lucy puts kisses on her messages to me. How do I handle it?' And you say ' hmm, what do you think would be best etc.

It's not a massive family problem. I would think another mum bonkers if they raised it to me, and refuse to engage in such teenage drama.

You are devastated? By a slightly mean message from one 12 year-old to another? And saying it has “cast a shadow” over your holiday?

This level of drama is completely unnecessary and ridiculous. All it would have taken is to say “That wasn’t very nice. It’s fine that you don't like Lucy in that way, but you can say that gently, without being rude”. The end. Instead, for reasons best known to yourself, you’ve turned it into this huge incident and are panicking your son is turning into Andrew Tate(?!)

You cannot think this is normal. Turning something that would have blown over in a couple of days into the drama of the year. Questioning how you’re bringing up your son. You need to take a long hard look at yourself and work out why your behaviour over such a minor incident has been so extreme.

Also, if we’re talking about respect for others, where is your ire for your friends who have decided it would be cute if your son and Lucy have an innocent handholding “boyfriend and girlfriend” scenario, without a thought for whether either child wants it? It’s them you should be mad at.

This.

Yes over the top. He was trying to set a boundary albeit in a rude way - but a way that a clumsy 12 year old might. If the sexes were reversed and someone sent that to my son, I would probably say ‘yes was a bit blunt of her but why not lay off texting her.’

The girls family don’t seem to have helped and I can understand why he was annoyed.

I think it is the tone of the message that is wrong.

He doesn't want to give Lucy the wrong impression, which is fine, but he needs to phrase it in a way that isn't so blunt.

And give him his phone back. Its a massive over reaction from you.

It's quite offensive that people keep saying 'if he'd been a girl'. He's not a girl. It's not the same. It's like "reverse racism"🙄

1. Boys don't tend to put kisses on the end of their texts as a matter of course, so that would be different if a boy was texting kisses to a girl

And 2. There is precisely zero chance of her 12 year old having to learn boundaries against girls because they will sexually abuse him. Or keep him at home looking after the children while she hides the money from him etc. it's rubbish. There is no female Andrew Tate waiting on charges of sex trafficking.

I actually agreed upthread that this is a long way away from Andrew Tate and no-one is saying that. MN surprises me sometimes. A mother is concerned about her young son’s attitude towards women and she’s actually being called out on it. Yes he needs to set some boundaries, but he can do so without being rude or hurtful. Your own boundaries and respect for others shouldn’t be incompatible.

From my perspective:-

It is too much to police all interactions on his phone.
He was establishing his boundaries. You have punished him for setting boundaries.
It’s okay not yo be perfect. What he said wasn’t perfect but he is young. Your friend shouldn’t be pushing him together with her daughter.

He's not owed a phone.

People who think 12 year olds should have total privacy on WhatsApp are part of the problem IMO.

I think there are a few things here. It sounds like Lucy struggles socially, as my older DD does. She may well be treated as a social pariah at school and yes, her mum may well have been hoping that she could have some positive social interaction with the child of a family friend.

The problem is that kids of that age who are worried about social status run a mile from kids who struggle, as though unpopularity is catching. I take a very hard line with DD2, who is very popular, on how she treats people who do not have her social capital.

Rather than worrying about Andrew Tate, I would work hard on the empathy aspect, and making it clear what standard of behaviour / basic courtesy you expect for the kids of your friends. I very much doubt Lucy’s mum was expecting a romantic relationship to blossom, she probably just wanted Lucy to have a positive social experience, as I said above. It’s worth advising your son to get over himself on that front, and it would also be a protective factor against online misogyny for him to have female friends. He doesn’t have to have Lucy as a bestie but he certainly does need to have basic standards of politeness. And it’s worth telling him that loads of girls / women put “x” on the end of texts - and it’s no more an actual kiss than any other emoji / symbol. It just signifies good intent

I also notice that the OP stated her DS has struggled with the transition to secondary school and this is when the behaviour started, which suggests there could be an element of bullying/peer pressure that he could be experiencing. This also needs to be addressed. He seems anxious for the validation of his peers, to the extent of treating others badly. A conversation with him to explore his experiences of school might be helpful.

There is also an opportunity here to teach him self confidence and having the courage of his own convictions and standing up for his values even if they go against the grain because he knows his own worth and that of others (for example, being kind to socially awkward people that other people may mock rather than being mortified to be seen with them of joining in with picking on them).

And that’s the problem.

yup I agree but this should be a teachable moment and not a punishment moment. ...certainly not a "mother devastated" moment.