Sending love to trans people on MN and beyond

[cassandre]

This isn't an AIBU. I just wanted to send love to trans people, in the UK especially, and to other members of the LGBTQIA+ community.

This hasn't been the easiest week for trans people, but there are a lot of us out there who accept you for who you are. We have your backs and we believe that eventually, tolerance and compassion will win.💖💖💖

Love from a longtime MNer and trans-inclusive feminist.

It’s not the problem of oppressed groups (in this case, women) to solve the problems created by their oppressors (men)

Why do you think in the last 15 years or so when trans activism ramped up, there’s been no call for third spaces, no call for more male or trans DV shelters, no call for prisons and hospital wards for trans people? I’ll tell you why - they expect to steal them of women who fought bloody hard to make them happen

It’s your claim, I thought you’d want to prove it. As I can’t find a source that says TW are at higher risk than women. What I CAN find is ma y sources to say TW commit acts of violence at the same rates as men who don’t identify as women. TW as a class are just as dangerous. Why the hell do you think we want them in our spaces.

I don't think you realise that this now needs to wash through the legal system.

You keep showing your blatant misunderstand of the ruling. Nothing has changed. Processes will change within organisations, NHS, police policies etc. but that’s a good thing because it protects women in the at they ALWAYS deserved. Nothing has changed here. No laws have changed. Trans people simply had no right to barge their way in in the first place.

People seem to think that Pandora's box has been well and truly shut, but this needs further legislation

It really doesn’t. Everyone is protected under the EA.

for eample, to determine the penalty if someone trans uses the incorrect loo. Will they get a fine? A criminal record? Be put on the register??

Once again you’re REALLY misunderstanding the EA here. The EA isn’t a criminal doctrine.

Even the senior civil servant who led the team working on the Equality Act says the purpose of the act has now changed, in the way I described in an earlier post

Can you provide a link or name? I doubt you’ve interpreted that correctly considering nothing has changed.

That will need revision - and will likely be weakend, eroding all our rights. This is not finished and done, so I don't have to get used to this just yet.

Sorry what? What are you banging on about? Nothing has changed in the EA. Not one thing. What do you think will need revision?

No need to - it tells me nothing. It doesn’t adhere to the concept that transwomen brains are “lady brains”. I don’t need to explore anything further

Of course. I have long since realised your mind is made up. Why let hundreds or thousands of scientific papers - if you search on ‘sexuality and the brain’ or ‘gender and the brain’ that is what you will find - get in the way?

No. There aren't hundreds or thousands of scientific papers that back up what you said. You can't even link one that actually backs you up. You even told us to email one author because their study didn't actually say what you thought it said. Stop wasting everyone's time... unless that is your pathetic plan.

Dr Bakker’s open access paper from 2022 that I referenced above finds another brain marker.

Importantly, this paper finds brain differences in transgender children before puberty, who have not been medically treated, as well as after puberty (with some intriguing reversals) It also references a 2017 paper of Sarah Burke which shows brain differences between trans women and gay men, answering another objection from the thread.

Someone else thought it wad a sign of weakness that Dr Bakker has said that much work remains to be done. No, this is a typical comment - of course much work remains, mapping the brain is a relatively new field. And you want your funders to know that you will be continuing to need support in this area.

Oh so now there’s thousands of academic papers that show lady brains are a thing in men’s heads?

Are you absolutely sure about that?

One can say both ‘we have good evidence that transgender brains show differences’ and ‘there is much more work to be done’

Both statements are true.

I'm also not on board with PP referring to transgender children. Children should not be referred to as transgender, their development is still incomplete and ongoing and they should not be pigeon holed in that way while they do so.

I'm prepared to accept anyone for who they really are. Unfortunately, trans people don't accept themselves for who they really are. If they did, they wouldn't be trans.

I think what helped me peak was that, growing up, I had older brothers who I adored very close in age and I was a massive Tom boy. I like short hair, oversized tee shirts, baggy jeans and convenient to my parents I’d wear my brothers’s hand-me-downs. I rejected anything “girly” in favour of wrestling and cars and I was very happy being that way.

It terrifies me that in another time, with different parents, I’d have been told I was a boy and possibly transed. And I’d have gone along with it because that’s what kids do with people they trust and love. I am not a boy, and I grew up to be more accepting of feminine things, and to think children like me now are being abused by parents and medics breaks my heart.

To me the problem is the ridiculous assumption that liking so called “girly” things means you should be viewed as a woman and vice versa if you like so called masculine stuff.
The whole point of feminism was to challenge that way of thinking.
You can be a gentle ballet loving boy/ man with long hair and painted nails. Society should celebrate your right to be any kind of man or woman you want. That is NOT the same as pretending you can change sex. That’s just delusional.

In the broad field of sexuality and the brain, yes. It is huge. Worth noting that ‘lady brain’ is your term, nobody else’s.

My message above is for @JandamiHash

“Someone else thought it wad a sign of weakness that Dr Bakker has said that much work remains to be done. No, this is a typical comment - of course much work remains, mapping the brain is a relatively new field. And you want your funders to know that you will be continuing to need support in this area.”

I believe it was said that the conclusion was not strong enough to support your initial strong claim. The one which you then walked back on.

You are of course entitled to your opinion but professionals in the field seem to use it routinely.

This is an interesting example of criticism from all sides. Several of your cohort objected earlier that the brains studied had been medicalised. As it is unethical to deny medical treatment, the way to study untreated brains is to study children before puberty.

The poor researchers can’t win with some MumsNetters. Luckily expert referees apply scientific standards

And there you are again :

"Being truly transgender is a measurable biological phenomenon”

This was the statement you made. Not the ones you are trying to say I was referring to.

No. I say there is good evidence of brain markers. Not perfect evidence.

Have you read the open access paper yet?

Another misrepresentation if you are referring to me. Although, I do question the ethics of medical treatment to make a body fit better to an individual’s philosophical belief.

I pointed out that the research did not include a cohort of adolescents who were age matched and disagnosed with gender dysphoria but were not taking puberty blockers.

Not an unfair criticism.

So how does that idea work with detransitioners?

Why don’t we concentrate on how women are (mis)treated abused raped controlled silenced around the world (BECAUSE they are WOMEN) and focus on that rather than putting all your energy into fighting the good fight for bob wanting to use the ladies loo because he feels like sue today? I don’t get the passion some women have for this cause. Especially the “feminists”

I wish them well using the spaces reserved for their biological sex.

Reality is very freeing

So you think that female police officers should be made to search men who have had their bits chopped off? So how do we tell which man has had his bits chopped off BEFORE he gets searched?

Remember that criminals aren’t always reliable at telling the truth.

There is weak and inconclusive evidence at this time. You might be an academic, but you are over representing the conclusions.

No one is asking for ‘perfect evidence’ from one study, just a strong correlation that is repeatable. And if one study didn’t have cover off some important aspects that might weaken the conclusion then future ones need to cover those.

Meanwhile, this is not supported by the two studies you posted.

"Being truly transgender is a measurable biological phenomenon”

Exactly.

Any studies Bakker does now should include adolescents without exogenous hormones but with gender dysphoria, and long term tracking with detransitioners included.