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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Sending love to trans people on MN and beyond

825 replies

cassandre · 17/04/2025 20:58

This isn't an AIBU. I just wanted to send love to trans people, in the UK especially, and to other members of the LGBTQIA+ community.

This hasn't been the easiest week for trans people, but there are a lot of us out there who accept you for who you are. We have your backs and we believe that eventually, tolerance and compassion will win.💖💖💖

Love from a longtime MNer and trans-inclusive feminist.

OP posts:
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12
poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 15:56

TheKeatingFive · 18/04/2025 15:41

So she didn't.

There's no objective criteria for male and female brains

Male and female brains differ in certain ways upon MRI examination. This is well established and not controversial

The research I cited and other research shows that those who identify as transgender from a young age have brains that are more likely to show characteristics of the brains of the opposite sex.

Shades of grey, shades of grey.

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 16:00

TheKeatingFive · 18/04/2025 15:07

You said this ...

Being truly transgender is a measurable biological phenomenon

Which is horseshit

Yes, in that your brain is likely to have some subtle characteristics of the brain of the opposite sex.

To what extent? No one knows. Giving people unnecessary MRIs for this purpose is expensive and must be done with due ethical consideration.

BiologicalRobot · 18/04/2025 16:00

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 15:56

Male and female brains differ in certain ways upon MRI examination. This is well established and not controversial

The research I cited and other research shows that those who identify as transgender from a young age have brains that are more likely to show characteristics of the brains of the opposite sex.

Shades of grey, shades of grey.

Male and female brains differ in certain ways upon MRI examination.
Not for gender. Sex only.

Nameychangington · 18/04/2025 16:04

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 15:56

Male and female brains differ in certain ways upon MRI examination. This is well established and not controversial

The research I cited and other research shows that those who identify as transgender from a young age have brains that are more likely to show characteristics of the brains of the opposite sex.

Shades of grey, shades of grey.

I vaguely remember a professor at uni showing us a graph of the correlation between rainfall in Sweden and sales of M&S bras. Correlation is not causation. Though as a scientist, I'm sure you know that.

Male.and female brains differ on scans, ok. The definition of male and female is binary, fixed and immutable. No grey at all. And now UK law explicitly recognises that fact, that we all already knew. No grey at all.

Bogginsthe3rd · 18/04/2025 16:07

TheKeatingFive · 18/04/2025 15:56

The study didn't control for basic additional factors and the study didn't determine any criteria that signified a male or female brain.

I'm not sure if you understood the study. The results of the MRI were validated by looking at random samples of cis gendered participants and then comparing to trans women (and then adjusting for those with mental health disorders).

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 16:08

BiologicalRobot · 18/04/2025 15:29

There is no venom when correctly sexing a person. There surely is hatred, or something that is equally disturbing, though in a person pretending to be something they are not to gain access to something they are not legally entitled to.

You are looking at the wrong people.

Until yesterday this barrister was legally entitled to the life they had been living. Gratuitously taking away their right to any adjustment period to react to this major change in law was simply nasty.

How would you like to go on national TV to discuss the losing side of a battle that was beyond dear to your heart and have the victor say the most hurtful, gratuitous personal thing they could get away with to you? When it was completely unnecessary.

One thing I generally love about this country is the graciousness of the victors The victorious woman on C4 and a number of PP on this thread are little better than Donald Trump.

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 16:09

Nameychangington · 18/04/2025 16:04

I vaguely remember a professor at uni showing us a graph of the correlation between rainfall in Sweden and sales of M&S bras. Correlation is not causation. Though as a scientist, I'm sure you know that.

Male.and female brains differ on scans, ok. The definition of male and female is binary, fixed and immutable. No grey at all. And now UK law explicitly recognises that fact, that we all already knew. No grey at all.

Amusing

ChocolatesAndRainbows · 18/04/2025 16:10

Support the trans community. I don't support the small few who simply want to infiltrate women spaces for nefarious reasons.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2025 16:11

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 14:36

I cannot link on my phone. I presume you can search for one or both of the following. There are several other examples

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age,
European Congress of Endocrinology, 19 May 2018

Biological sex classification with structural MRI data shows increased misclassification in transgender women, Neuropsychopharmacology 45 1758-1765 (2020)

Both excellent journals

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age,
European Congress of Endocrinology, 19 May 2018

Is there a link to this please.

I have searched as well as I can and all I can find is the pdf press release with the abstract and numerous replications of the press release. Or articles referring to it.

As you are an academic, I would hope that you can provide a link when you have a chance, eg, not on your phone, so we can see more than the abstract please.

This is the pdf that I have found on it for anyone who is interested

https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/ei0psrhz/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf

https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/ei0psrhz/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf

TheKeatingFive · 18/04/2025 16:11

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 15:56

Male and female brains differ in certain ways upon MRI examination. This is well established and not controversial

The research I cited and other research shows that those who identify as transgender from a young age have brains that are more likely to show characteristics of the brains of the opposite sex.

Shades of grey, shades of grey.

No. It didn't control for lots of factors that would have influenced the result. The authors themselves don't claim ot demonstrates what you are saying.

Bogginsthe3rd · 18/04/2025 16:13

Nameychangington · 18/04/2025 16:04

I vaguely remember a professor at uni showing us a graph of the correlation between rainfall in Sweden and sales of M&S bras. Correlation is not causation. Though as a scientist, I'm sure you know that.

Male.and female brains differ on scans, ok. The definition of male and female is binary, fixed and immutable. No grey at all. And now UK law explicitly recognises that fact, that we all already knew. No grey at all.

I think you are confusing correlation with significance. The study (not that this study matters in the grand scheme of things but does show physiological differences between trans and cis gendered) showed highly significant findings to a p value of < 0.001 or lower in some findings. Meaning the chance of of the findings occuring by chance alone were less than 0.1%.
So what your prof was saying isn't particularly relevant.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2025 16:16

Helleofabore · 18/04/2025 15:51

Is the link below the second one you are talking about:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7419542/

Biological sex classification with structural MRI data shows increased misclassification in transgender women

Claas Flint, Katharina Förster, Sophie A. Koser, Carsten Konrad, Pienie Zwitserlood, Klaus Berger, Marco Hermesdorf, Tilo Kircher, Igor Nenadic, Axel Krug, Bernhard T. Baune, Katharina Dohm, Ronny Redlich, Nils Opel, Volker Arolt, Tim Hahn, Xiaoyi Jiang, Udo Dannlowski and Dominik Grotegerd

9 April 2020

Because if I remember correctly, I couldn't find where they did a direct control and compared the group to a group of male people taking that same hormones without that group having a gender identity. Maybe as you are an academic, you could point out where that was mentioned?

And all that I found this study to say is that the male people on specific exogenous hormones have brains that change to neither be easily classifiable as male or female. It does not say that those brains replicated female people's brains.

And we already know that specific hormones create particular differences in human brains. So too does particular interests. I would expect how someone views themselves will also create differences within the brain.

Considering how many medical research teams have now reviewed the studies published around the world in different reviews, if there was strong evidence that brains showed particular measurable differences that indicated some one was transgender, surely we would be hearing a lot more about it. And it would be part of diagnosis. But it is not part of diagnosis at all.

Also, can you point out where same sex attraction was controlled in the study.

Nameychangington · 18/04/2025 16:18

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 16:08

Until yesterday this barrister was legally entitled to the life they had been living. Gratuitously taking away their right to any adjustment period to react to this major change in law was simply nasty.

How would you like to go on national TV to discuss the losing side of a battle that was beyond dear to your heart and have the victor say the most hurtful, gratuitous personal thing they could get away with to you? When it was completely unnecessary.

One thing I generally love about this country is the graciousness of the victors The victorious woman on C4 and a number of PP on this thread are little better than Donald Trump.

The law hasn't changed! No rights were taken away! RMW is still as entitled to the life he was living today as he was on Tuesday! Stop spreading lies and actually read the judgement.

What he's not entitled to, and was never entitled to, is women's rights and women's single sex spaces. Lots of people and public bodies were trained that the law said something it doesn't say. Now that's been clarified and everyone can start abiding by the actual law, not the law as Stonewall wanted it to be.

And when you start chucking Trump in, we know you've got nothing.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2025 16:22

Nameychangington · 18/04/2025 16:18

The law hasn't changed! No rights were taken away! RMW is still as entitled to the life he was living today as he was on Tuesday! Stop spreading lies and actually read the judgement.

What he's not entitled to, and was never entitled to, is women's rights and women's single sex spaces. Lots of people and public bodies were trained that the law said something it doesn't say. Now that's been clarified and everyone can start abiding by the actual law, not the law as Stonewall wanted it to be.

And when you start chucking Trump in, we know you've got nothing.

I think the Ch4 interview with Maya Forstater was with Kane.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2025 16:24

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 16:08

Until yesterday this barrister was legally entitled to the life they had been living. Gratuitously taking away their right to any adjustment period to react to this major change in law was simply nasty.

How would you like to go on national TV to discuss the losing side of a battle that was beyond dear to your heart and have the victor say the most hurtful, gratuitous personal thing they could get away with to you? When it was completely unnecessary.

One thing I generally love about this country is the graciousness of the victors The victorious woman on C4 and a number of PP on this thread are little better than Donald Trump.

If you are talking about Kane, Kane admitted on national TV to sex by deception. That they had sex with a medical doctor and the doctor did not know that Kane was male and was transgender.

That is currently unlawful.

As so many people are telling us though, the laws have not changed. And they have not. What has changed is that organisations now have clarity about what the EA covers and always covered.

BiologicalRobot · 18/04/2025 16:26

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 16:08

Until yesterday this barrister was legally entitled to the life they had been living. Gratuitously taking away their right to any adjustment period to react to this major change in law was simply nasty.

How would you like to go on national TV to discuss the losing side of a battle that was beyond dear to your heart and have the victor say the most hurtful, gratuitous personal thing they could get away with to you? When it was completely unnecessary.

One thing I generally love about this country is the graciousness of the victors The victorious woman on C4 and a number of PP on this thread are little better than Donald Trump.

Until yesterday this barrister was legally entitled to the life they had been living.

NOTHING HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM TRANSPEOPLE. NOTHING!!!

When are you going to absorb that little factual nugget?

Superhansrantowindsor · 18/04/2025 16:30

Part of the problem is that people have been stating things as fact for so long without being questioned that we are in a right mess.
There was actual law and stonewall law.
There was actual scientific fact conflated with scientific theory.
There were statistics presented as conclusive when the data sample was flawed.

So now we are in a situation where people think they have lost rights. They haven’t.

Annascaul · 18/04/2025 16:35

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 16:08

Until yesterday this barrister was legally entitled to the life they had been living. Gratuitously taking away their right to any adjustment period to react to this major change in law was simply nasty.

How would you like to go on national TV to discuss the losing side of a battle that was beyond dear to your heart and have the victor say the most hurtful, gratuitous personal thing they could get away with to you? When it was completely unnecessary.

One thing I generally love about this country is the graciousness of the victors The victorious woman on C4 and a number of PP on this thread are little better than Donald Trump.

Self ID had never become law, whatever RMW would have you believe.
He never had the legal right to enter women’s spaces. He just bulldozed his way in, as he apparently plans to continue doing, even after the verdict.

Helleofabore · 18/04/2025 16:42

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 15:56

Male and female brains differ in certain ways upon MRI examination. This is well established and not controversial

The research I cited and other research shows that those who identify as transgender from a young age have brains that are more likely to show characteristics of the brains of the opposite sex.

Shades of grey, shades of grey.

'More likely' is having to carry a great deal here.

I don't believe that a strong conclusion has been drawn by Bakker. I think that she has said there may be, but it all requires a lot more research. Without us seeing the results, we also don't know if the grouping were well within the known ranges for each sex.

I think you are trying to convince readers of conclusions that you have strengthened without supporting evidence.

https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/ei0psrhz/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf

Abstract Symposium S30.3

Brain structure and function in gender dysphoria

The concept of gender identity is uniquely human. Hence we are left with the phenomenon of men and women suffering from Gender Dysphoria (GD) also known as transsexualism to study the origins of gender identity in humans. It has been hypothesized that atypical levels of sex steroids during a perinatal critical period of neuronal sexual differentiation may be involved in the development of GD. In order to test this hypothesis, we investigated brain structure and function in individuals diagnosed with GD using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Since GD is often diagnosed in childhood and puberty has been proposed to be an additional organizational period in brain differentiation, we included both prepubertal children and adolescents with GD in our studies. First, we measured brain activation upon exposure to androstadienone, a putative male chemo-signal which evokes sex differences in hypothalamic activation (women > men). We found that hypothalamic responses of both adolescent girls and boys diagnosed with GD were more similar to their experienced gender than their birth sex, which supports the hypothesis of a sex-atypical brain differentiation in these individuals. At the structural level, we analyzed both regional gray matter (GM) volumes and white matter (WM) microstructure using diffusion tensor imaging. In cisgender girls, larger GM volumes were observed in the bilateral superior medial frontal and left pre/postcentral cortex, while cis-gender boys had more volume in the bilateral superior-posterior cerebellum and hypothalamus. Within these regions of interest representing sexually dimorphic brain structures, GM volumes of both GD groups deviated from the volumetric characteristics of their birth sex towards those of individuals sharing their gender identity. Furthermore, we found intermediate patterns in WM microstructure in adolescent boys with GD, but only sex-typical ones in adolescent girls with GD. These results on brain structure are thus partially in line with a sex-atypical differentiation of the brain during early development in individuals with GD, but might also suggest that other mechanisms are involved. Indeed, using resting state MRI, we observed GD-specific functional connectivity in the visual network in adolescent girls with GD. The latter is in support of a more recent hypothesis on alterations in brain networks important for own body perception and self-referential processing in individuals with GD.

Abstract below from a follow up that Bakker did in 2023

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39029340/

Abstract

This review has been based on my invited lecture at the annual meeting of the Society for Behavioral Neuroendocrinology in 2023. Gender incongruence is defined as a marked and persistent incongruence between an individual's experienced gender and the sex assigned at birth. A prominent hypothesis on the etiology of gender incongruence proposes that it is related to an altered or less pronounced sexual differentiation of the brain. This hypothesis has primarily been based on postmortem studies of the hypothalamus in transgender individuals. To further address this hypothesis, a series of structural and functional neuroimaging studies were conducted in the Amsterdam cohort of children and adolescents experiencing gender incongruence. Additional research objectives were to determine whether any sex and gender differences are established before or after puberty, as well as whether gender affirming hormone treatment would affect brain development and function. We found some evidence in favor of the sexual differentiation hypothesis at the functional level, but this was less evident at the structural level. We also observed some specific transgender neural signatures, suggesting that they might present a unique brain phenotype rather than being shifted towards either end of the male-female spectrum. Our results further suggest that the years between childhood and mid-adolescence represent an important period in which puberty-related factors influence several neural characteristics, such as white matter development and functional connectivity patterns, in both a sex and gender identity specific way. These latter observations thus lead to the important question about the possible negative consequences of delaying puberty on neurodevelopment. To further address this question, larger-scale, longitudinal studies are required to increase our understanding of the possible neurodevelopmental impacts of delaying puberty in transgender youth.

Neurobiological characteristics associated with gender identity: Findings from neuroimaging studies in the Amsterdam cohort of children and adolescents experiencing gender incongruence - PubMed

This review has been based on my invited lecture at the annual meeting of the Society for Behavioral Neuroendocrinology in 2023. Gender incongruence is defined as a marked and persistent incongruence between an individual's experienced gender and the s...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39029340/

JandamiHash · 18/04/2025 16:49

poetryandwine · 18/04/2025 15:03

I never claimed this. I claimed there are differences. The brains of transgender youth are more likely to be misclassified, and to show characteristics of the opposite sex. That is what the articles show.

Shades of grey.

Shades of grey are of great importance to research but they are not a good basis for law.

Of course I am aware that some science is black and white, but results in new areas of research are often grey

This study has absolutely no bearing on who is a man or a woman. The brains of trans people are not different to the sex they’re part of and this study doesn’t prove otherwise

JandamiHash · 18/04/2025 16:51

Bogginsthe3rd · 18/04/2025 15:06

They did but that's ok. What's your response to the findings of the article on MRI brains?

It really didn’t. Have you read it?

And why do you think k this evidence wasn’t presented in the trial?

Helleofabore · 18/04/2025 17:01

Bogginsthe3rd · 18/04/2025 16:07

I'm not sure if you understood the study. The results of the MRI were validated by looking at random samples of cis gendered participants and then comparing to trans women (and then adjusting for those with mental health disorders).

The adult study?

Please show in that study where there was a control for taking into account other male people who had the same hormones without declaring they were female? Plus can you please show where same sex attraction was controlled for?

The graph also do not show that the males who were transgender were the same as the female results.

It did show that hormones make brain changes, but we already know this. We also know that people with common interests can develop similar brain patterns.

LittlerCharlotte · 18/04/2025 17:04

Bogginsthe3rd · 18/04/2025 14:23

Except it's literally about the trans community

I believe the word "woman" was the one which apparently required definition. So it's about WOMEN. for once, we matter.

Didimum · 18/04/2025 17:20

For me, I think it’s now time for men in society to start doing the work in ensuring the transgender community feel comfortable, safe and accepted in public settings. They need to start with accepting and embracing that there are many different ways to be male, and that whatever type of male, adult or child, you are, you don’t need to grow to despise your body or feel as though your body does not fit your brain. If there are true myriad and all accepted facets of manhood and womanhood, then there should be no fear for that brain to be in either biological categorisation.

It’s abundantly clear to me, especially having a son, that male socialisation is heavily restricted and exclusive, not to mention aggressive and ridiculing of any male who is even slightly outside the bounds of those restrictions.

Men need to do better.

TheKeatingFive · 18/04/2025 17:21

Didimum · 18/04/2025 17:20

For me, I think it’s now time for men in society to start doing the work in ensuring the transgender community feel comfortable, safe and accepted in public settings. They need to start with accepting and embracing that there are many different ways to be male, and that whatever type of male, adult or child, you are, you don’t need to grow to despise your body or feel as though your body does not fit your brain. If there are true myriad and all accepted facets of manhood and womanhood, then there should be no fear for that brain to be in either biological categorisation.

It’s abundantly clear to me, especially having a son, that male socialisation is heavily restricted and exclusive, not to mention aggressive and ridiculing of any male who is even slightly outside the bounds of those restrictions.

Men need to do better.

All of this

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