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The US ultra-right should leave the UK alone!!!

452 replies

StandFirm · 14/04/2025 10:59

I was going to use a rude expletive in the thread title to truly reflect my thoughts on this. I've known about this insidious creeping influence for a little while but reading the article in the link below has made me livid. We are not going to be censored by foreign actors who understand nothing about our culture. I have often observed a false sense of familiarity among Brits regarding American culture but it goes both ways, and this attempt at dragging us along into the dark pit of ignorance should stay the fuck away from here:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/apr/14/librarians-in-uk-increasingly-asked-to-remove-books-as-influence-of-us-pressure-groups-spreads

Librarians in UK increasingly asked to remove books, as influence of US pressure groups spreads

Anecdotal evidence suggests a rise in requests to take books off shelves, particularly LGBTQ+ titles

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/apr/14/librarians-in-uk-increasingly-asked-to-remove-books-as-influence-of-us-pressure-groups-spreads

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12
SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 19:19

For anyone not familiar, I'd suggest giving a quick Google of "Peter Tatchell Mumsnet". There have been several threads on him over the years.

NoWordForFluffy · 24/04/2025 19:23

Have an archived copy (I refuse to accept cookies to read news articles too): https://archive.ph/DCnOi

We don't really have hate speech laws here, it's mostly dealt with by way of public order offences. I note that nobody has said what specific non-existent law they're on about?

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 19:28

JHound · 24/04/2025 19:19

How curious - it’s not Paywall’d for me (and I don’t pay for the Independent).

It is for me. Regardless, you obviously felt this was a relevant article. Maybe you can give us a summary and explain why?

I see "lgbt hate speech" in the title. Presumably Tatchell thinks we're abandoning our values and becoming a nation of hate speechers to appease America? There must be some recent incident of hate speech that has triggered this fear. Is it that society has now decided women can say "transwomen are men" without being cancelled?

If so, Tatchell has sparred with many a gender critical woman over the years. He should know full well this is a long-standing debate it took America years to wake up and follow Britain into. The Supreme Court judgement is not a sign of American hard-right influence on Britain at all.

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 19:33

NoWordForFluffy · 24/04/2025 19:23

Have an archived copy (I refuse to accept cookies to read news articles too): https://archive.ph/DCnOi

We don't really have hate speech laws here, it's mostly dealt with by way of public order offences. I note that nobody has said what specific non-existent law they're on about?

Ooh, go on then 😂

I can't stand Tatchell, but now you've made it so easy for me, I'll bite

NoWordForFluffy · 24/04/2025 19:35

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 19:33

Ooh, go on then 😂

I can't stand Tatchell, but now you've made it so easy for me, I'll bite

Maybe I should've just taken one for the team as it's a heap of emotive, baseless, shite!

JHound · 24/04/2025 19:35

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 19:28

It is for me. Regardless, you obviously felt this was a relevant article. Maybe you can give us a summary and explain why?

I see "lgbt hate speech" in the title. Presumably Tatchell thinks we're abandoning our values and becoming a nation of hate speechers to appease America? There must be some recent incident of hate speech that has triggered this fear. Is it that society has now decided women can say "transwomen are men" without being cancelled?

If so, Tatchell has sparred with many a gender critical woman over the years. He should know full well this is a long-standing debate it took America years to wake up and follow Britain into. The Supreme Court judgement is not a sign of American hard-right influence on Britain at all.

He talks about what I mentioned in my brief. It’s all “claims from sources” hence I called it rumours but enough “sources” for Downing Street to feel the need to deny it.

Essentially suggesting that Vance has been pushing for softening of our equality laws in return for getting the trade deal across the line. We saw for example how he took umbrage to people given prison sentenced for inciting others to burn asylum seekers alive in their hotels etc.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 19:36

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 19:28

It is for me. Regardless, you obviously felt this was a relevant article. Maybe you can give us a summary and explain why?

I see "lgbt hate speech" in the title. Presumably Tatchell thinks we're abandoning our values and becoming a nation of hate speechers to appease America? There must be some recent incident of hate speech that has triggered this fear. Is it that society has now decided women can say "transwomen are men" without being cancelled?

If so, Tatchell has sparred with many a gender critical woman over the years. He should know full well this is a long-standing debate it took America years to wake up and follow Britain into. The Supreme Court judgement is not a sign of American hard-right influence on Britain at all.

I would go further than that and say that anyone who thinks the Supreme Court interpreting and upholding the women's rights in the groundbreaking equality legislation passed by the last Labour government (the first of its type in the world to give trans people comprehensive protection against discrimination) is evidence of the American far right meddling in British politics is a weapons grade ignoramus and can be safely ignored.

JHound · 24/04/2025 19:41

Also the focus on Tatchell is a bit of a red herring - Probably the wrong article for me to post as it’s just him writing an opinion piece based on an Independent article (which is what I should have posted.)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trump-jd-vance-trade-deal-free-speech-b2733806.html

NoWordForFluffy · 24/04/2025 19:42

Every article I found on it was exceptionally vague!

JHound · 24/04/2025 19:43

Yep. It’s why I said they appear to be just rumours and I cannot confirm the validity but if true it’s the kind of thing I have a huge issue with.

NPET · 24/04/2025 19:48

JHound · 14/04/2025 21:02

The obsession the USA ultra right have with Europe, how we do things, how they think we should doings is just baffling to me.

Baffling. Like Vance’s lecture, speech to the EU. Baffling.

I think we're a thorn in their side. They see Europe as important overall, so are forever afraid that it will "rise up again" as it was prior to being destroyed in many ways in WW2, and rule the world again!
After all, (white) America grew out of Europe so they fear that "our ways" (free speech, health services, concern for inhabitants*) might invade America and prevent them from exploiting their citizens.
*Generalising here. I know we could find people being treated unfairly by governments in every country in the world.

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 19:49

As I thought, the article is a lot of faff and speculation, based on very little hard fact. It actually revolves around the 'free speech vs hate speech' argument. A debate which has been rumbling on for a while in the UK. Muslim advocacy groups have been calling for certain things to be made hate speech, which would be tantamount to introducing blasphemy laws by the back door. Several prominent ex-Muslims and critics of Islam understandably take issue with this. In addition, we've seen hate speech laws weaponised against multiple women over the years, for the crime of saying men can't be women. This has had a misogynistic and speech-chilling effect, and has understandably led many people to have concerns about what, exactly, is being classified as hate speech these days.

It's a thorny issue, and I'm certain Tatchell is bringing it up in relation to the recent Supreme Court ruling. He is careful to refer to "homophobic hate speech", but I think the many gay and lesbian people who have butted heads with him over the years will see through that. His real agenda is pretty obviously protecting the feelings of trans people. He's soooo careful not to bring it them up in the article, but it just makes it all the more obvious.

On the topic of tariffs: Trump imposed them on everyone. Even his allies, like Israel. This isn't some grand plan to subdue the UK because he desperately wants access to this market. He's doing it to everyone. And he has plenty of trades partners to choose from. I doubt the UK is that high up on the American agenda, to be honest.

Vance is a free speech absolutist, as most Americans are. But Trump's current government talk a lot and change their minds on almost as much. I'll wait to see what actually happens with any trade deal. Rumours from unnamed "sources" don't hold much weight with me. My honest take is that this is all hot air, and Peter Tatchell is trying to scaremonger in service of his own agenda.

JHound · 24/04/2025 19:51

NPET · 24/04/2025 19:48

I think we're a thorn in their side. They see Europe as important overall, so are forever afraid that it will "rise up again" as it was prior to being destroyed in many ways in WW2, and rule the world again!
After all, (white) America grew out of Europe so they fear that "our ways" (free speech, health services, concern for inhabitants*) might invade America and prevent them from exploiting their citizens.
*Generalising here. I know we could find people being treated unfairly by governments in every country in the world.

The current regime gives me Sons of Jacobs vibes but as long ad they don’t try to “influence” anything outside of their borders I am fine. And just send Thoughts and Prayers to my stateside friends and family.

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 19:58

NPET · 24/04/2025 19:48

I think we're a thorn in their side. They see Europe as important overall, so are forever afraid that it will "rise up again" as it was prior to being destroyed in many ways in WW2, and rule the world again!
After all, (white) America grew out of Europe so they fear that "our ways" (free speech, health services, concern for inhabitants*) might invade America and prevent them from exploiting their citizens.
*Generalising here. I know we could find people being treated unfairly by governments in every country in the world.

I disagree. America has a habit of seeing communism around every corner, and tends to interpret the mild socialism of Europe as a toehold to be feared.

But I just don't think they care that much about Europe, to be honest. America has been the dominant world power for so long I don't think it even occurs to them to fear the rise of Europe. China and Russia, sure. Europe, no. I think they view us as weak freeloaders unfairly reliant on America for our own defense. Vance's leaked messages made that abundantly clear. They don't fear us. I don't think they even respect us, unfortunately.

EasternStandard · 24/04/2025 20:02

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 19:49

As I thought, the article is a lot of faff and speculation, based on very little hard fact. It actually revolves around the 'free speech vs hate speech' argument. A debate which has been rumbling on for a while in the UK. Muslim advocacy groups have been calling for certain things to be made hate speech, which would be tantamount to introducing blasphemy laws by the back door. Several prominent ex-Muslims and critics of Islam understandably take issue with this. In addition, we've seen hate speech laws weaponised against multiple women over the years, for the crime of saying men can't be women. This has had a misogynistic and speech-chilling effect, and has understandably led many people to have concerns about what, exactly, is being classified as hate speech these days.

It's a thorny issue, and I'm certain Tatchell is bringing it up in relation to the recent Supreme Court ruling. He is careful to refer to "homophobic hate speech", but I think the many gay and lesbian people who have butted heads with him over the years will see through that. His real agenda is pretty obviously protecting the feelings of trans people. He's soooo careful not to bring it them up in the article, but it just makes it all the more obvious.

On the topic of tariffs: Trump imposed them on everyone. Even his allies, like Israel. This isn't some grand plan to subdue the UK because he desperately wants access to this market. He's doing it to everyone. And he has plenty of trades partners to choose from. I doubt the UK is that high up on the American agenda, to be honest.

Vance is a free speech absolutist, as most Americans are. But Trump's current government talk a lot and change their minds on almost as much. I'll wait to see what actually happens with any trade deal. Rumours from unnamed "sources" don't hold much weight with me. My honest take is that this is all hot air, and Peter Tatchell is trying to scaremonger in service of his own agenda.

The Independent has been woeful on the SC ruling. Even more so than The Guardian so I’m not surprised.

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 20:04

EasternStandard · 24/04/2025 20:02

The Independent has been woeful on the SC ruling. Even more so than The Guardian so I’m not surprised.

I noticed! Still not as bad as the Metro though. I think they're the nadir

bemoresloth · 24/04/2025 20:20

GB News had running commentary if that is more to your taste.

They are also quite pro Trump.

EasternStandard · 24/04/2025 20:37

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 20:04

I noticed! Still not as bad as the Metro though. I think they're the nadir

I hadn’t read that. Someone always posts about GB News but there’s more than the anti women media below and that.

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 20:58

bemoresloth · 24/04/2025 20:20

GB News had running commentary if that is more to your taste.

They are also quite pro Trump.

Pro tip: if you're going to make a dig at someone, ditch the passive aggression and say it with your whole chest. They may not like you for it, but they'll respect you more.

This 👆 I don't respect at all. I just think you're a fool.

bemoresloth · 24/04/2025 21:02

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 20:58

Pro tip: if you're going to make a dig at someone, ditch the passive aggression and say it with your whole chest. They may not like you for it, but they'll respect you more.

This 👆 I don't respect at all. I just think you're a fool.

Biggly thank you dear

SnoopyPajamas · 24/04/2025 21:08

bemoresloth · 24/04/2025 21:02

Biggly thank you dear

A fool twice over, apparently 🙄

Three times over, actually, but you're too busy making assumptions to notice that. I'd laugh at you, but I feel a bit sorry for you.

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 08:05

JHound · 24/04/2025 19:35

He talks about what I mentioned in my brief. It’s all “claims from sources” hence I called it rumours but enough “sources” for Downing Street to feel the need to deny it.

Essentially suggesting that Vance has been pushing for softening of our equality laws in return for getting the trade deal across the line. We saw for example how he took umbrage to people given prison sentenced for inciting others to burn asylum seekers alive in their hotels etc.

Yes, I saw references to this but the only article I can find is that one in the Independent (other outlets quote the same). It's not clear at this stage what shape it will take if a trade deal is signed but I imagine it will be tied to redefining our regulations of digital media and tax breaks for US owned digital platforms, leaving us to subsidise them while the government levies more tax on ordinary workers.
Vance is not a free speech absolutist - if only!- he's an absolutist full stop. That crowd only tolerates speech that agrees with them.

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JHound · 25/04/2025 10:02

@SnoopyPajamas

I take issue with the claim that most Americans are free speech absolutists. They really aren’t.
We can see that with the current obsession from the Republican administration with rewriting US history to remove reference to / play down its darker aspects.

We also see that with Trump refusing to grant White House access to AP news because they have not gone along with his daft idea to rename the Gulf of Mexico and his threatening of universities that don’t restrict and remove students right to protest and his attempts to cancel the Green card of Mohsen Madawi for organising pro-palestinian protests.

They are pro Free Speech they agree with.

If they disagree with what’s being said they have no issue trying to restrict it / punishing those they take issue with.

JHound · 25/04/2025 10:03

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 08:05

Yes, I saw references to this but the only article I can find is that one in the Independent (other outlets quote the same). It's not clear at this stage what shape it will take if a trade deal is signed but I imagine it will be tied to redefining our regulations of digital media and tax breaks for US owned digital platforms, leaving us to subsidise them while the government levies more tax on ordinary workers.
Vance is not a free speech absolutist - if only!- he's an absolutist full stop. That crowd only tolerates speech that agrees with them.

Hard agree re: Free Speech. Like most people who claim to be Free Speech absolutists they are not. There are loads of examples of people being punished for what they say.

StandFirm · 25/04/2025 10:03

Emily Amick writes a good Substack. Her article references other sources that mention MAGA's pro-natalist agenda:
https://emilyinyourphone.substack.com/p/revealed-elon-and-trumps-plans-to

And this one quote Nigel Farage echoing a pro-natalist stance. He was interviewed by Jordan Petersen. Coincidence? Maybe not...
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-calls-on-brits-to-have-more-children_uk_67b493e3e4b0765f4479b1d2

REVEALED: Elon and Trump's Plans to Mint More Mothers

Introducing the “Fertilization” President and the Surrogate King

https://emilyinyourphone.substack.com/p/revealed-elon-and-trumps-plans-to

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