Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Death penalty for these evil prisoners

130 replies

Sameoldsameoldsame · 13/04/2025 18:53

Manchester bombers brother who helped plan attack is in prison for life.

In 2022 along with another prisoner attacked 3 officers, getting another 3 years added to sentence.

Now just seriously stabbed 2 male prison officers and thrown hot oil on them both and another female officer. Vile, disgusting.

Why is he and similar other evil prisoners being housed in comfort in a separation centre, highly staffed with their own cooking facility?

Needs putting down. Save millions. He's no good to anyone. A rabbid dog that just attacks anyone that goes near him. How many more prison officers will he be allowed to stab or throw hot oil over.

OP posts:
CyclingAddict · 14/04/2025 15:55

Saudi Arabia have a deterrent: hanging

Very few people are committing crimes there

Maitri108 · 14/04/2025 16:09

CyclingAddict · 14/04/2025 15:55

Saudi Arabia have a deterrent: hanging

Very few people are committing crimes there

Most dictatorships have little crime. Well if you don't count the mass human rights abuses.

MumOfTwoLittleOnes24 · 14/04/2025 16:12

Dotjones · 14/04/2025 10:51

Those points can be easily discounted.

  1. As you state it's a very small risk, particularly in the type of case the OP is talking about. We're talking about a person with overwhelming evidence against them who were involved in the murder of many innocent people. Someone who still seeks out ways to kill people even in confinement.
  2. It may be more expensive in America, but it doesn't have to be. There's no need to let someone live on death row for years. That's not how it used to work in Britain, executions were carried out after three Sundays had passed. People were convicted, sentenced and executed in short order. The cost of cremation of the corpse could be done cheaply enough, no more than £1000 per convict, perhaps more cheaply if multiple condemned were cremated together. The execution itself need not be expensive, just a bit of rope and a trapdoor. The executioner and their team would need paying of course but then so do normal prison guards. Executions could cost less than keeping an inmate locked up for a few months, all in.
  3. The state over-reach argument doesn't hold up. It might if we lived in a free society which left people to their own devices, but we most certainly do not. The state has immense power over us and we live in a country where we have to behave in a certain way. We are so brainwashed most people don't even realise it. We pay a huge amount in taxes and the whole system is designed to benefit the super-rich, whichever party is in power. Even if you don't agree with me on this and think our country is a perfect democracy, by extension you'd also have to accept that in that case it would be perfectly acceptable for the voters to vote for a party that would enable convicts to be put to death. It's not over-reach if it's what people vote for.
Show quote history

I’m afraid you really haven’t discounted my three points.

  1. Risk of a miscarriage of justice. Whilst I agree that there really is overwhelming evidence in many cases nowadays there is a (very) small chance of wrongful conviction. Unfortunately, and frustratingly, laws must be written for the special cases and not the majority if we are to avoid the an innocent person being executed.

  2. Cost
    Any decent justice system must have a vigorous and thorough Appeals process. This inevitably is a very prolonged and highly expensive process. The ‘execution after 3 consecutive Sundays’ is for the birds, I’m afraid…

  3. State Over-Reach.
    I absolutely agree with you in that we most certainly do not live in a perfect democracy in this country. No system of government is or ever was perfect and I believe ours is a world away from perfection! It’s because I don’t trust the Establishment to have any more power over us (than they already do) that I would fear their having this, what is, ultimate power over citizens.

Finally, (if you’ve read this far 😁) I would like to add that I genuinely understand the burning sense of injustice that people feel on reading reports of the most evil of criminals given far too lenient punishments for their crimes.

I have really struggled with it and view not reintroducing Capital Punishment as a necessary evil.

Flutterbyby · 14/04/2025 16:13

Sameoldsameoldsame · 13/04/2025 19:26

He's not innocent.

Show quote history

But the death penalty will always be applied to those that are innocent, as well as the guilty.

You would have killed the Guildford four and the Birmingham six presumably?

ElbowsUp · 14/04/2025 16:14

CyclingAddict · 14/04/2025 15:55

Saudi Arabia have a deterrent: hanging

Very few people are committing crimes there

They have another deterent: punishing victims. Oh you were rated? That means you're an adultrer, 100 lashes for you.

No wonder their (reported) crime rates are low.

Original poster
Sameoldsameoldsame · 14/04/2025 16:15

Randomer27 · 13/04/2025 20:11

So you’re up for public beheadings?

Show quote history

Somebody is jumping to conclusions. Who mentioned public beheadings!

OP posts:
Lascivious · 14/04/2025 16:18

Yawn. Empty vessels…

StrikeForever · 14/04/2025 16:30

Christmastreegremlin · 14/04/2025 15:42

There comes a point where for the safety of all involved, 'human rights' need to take less priority.

The person discussed here is a radicalised fundamentalist Muslim who feels and believes that his Religious beliefs justify his murder and serious assault on people he feels are against his beliefs.

He would likely use any visits by family, Religious figures or access to media to further justify his beliefs and behaviour which has been repeatedly demonstrated to put people that don't share his belief system at risk of serious harm

He's a fucking terrorist at the end of the day. That's who he is and it's what he believes and even when given opportunities to e.g cook in prison, he's used it to harm people.

He's fucked himself repeatedly in terms of opportunities in prison and taken those opportunities to harm people.

I'm sure he will suffer mentally in a more reduced regime but I couldn't care less to be honest. And really question the bleeding hearts and why they give more of a shit about his mental health than the staff that he's already harmed and would continue to risk to do so with a more permissive regime.

I'll always support the staff.

Show quote history

My ex husband was staff until he retired, so so do I. How does allowing them to read inoffensive books place staff at higher risk?

CaptainMyCaptain · 14/04/2025 16:36

Smallmercies · 13/04/2025 19:00

Yawn. Bring back public beheadings. Oops, they were innocent? Never mind, so long as primitive people's blood lust is satisfied.

Yes. Good job they didn't get their hands on Lucy Letby now there are doubts about her conviction.

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 14/04/2025 16:51

That's the terrifying thing about it though. He's doing 55 years in Prison. He's got nothing at all to lose. He d probably welcome the Death Penalty. The worse they can do to him is out him in Solitary Confinement, and if he's not a lonely person SC may not bother him.
There's no solution to it that I can think of but I'm just a nobody. I'm not expected to have any answers.
I will say this though WTF thought it was a grand idea to let him near cooking equipment and oil ect.

JohnTheRevelator · 14/04/2025 16:57

I just can't get my head around the fact that he had access to boiling hot oil.

ElbowsUp · 14/04/2025 19:35

StrikeForever · 14/04/2025 16:30

My ex husband was staff until he retired, so so do I. How does allowing them to read inoffensive books place staff at higher risk?

Show quote history

Yup.

I'm all for eliminating possible means of harm, and implementing incredibly strict controls and limits, but we need not tip over into torture for the sake of it.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 14/04/2025 20:59

I don’t ever agree with the death penalty.

PassingStranger · 14/04/2025 21:16

The joke is, is that we are too soft.
Officers asked for stab proof vests but we're denied.
Perhaps they will have to revisit that.
Take Control.of the prisoners, not the other way round.

travellinglighter · 14/04/2025 21:41

Dotjones · 14/04/2025 10:51

Those points can be easily discounted.

  1. As you state it's a very small risk, particularly in the type of case the OP is talking about. We're talking about a person with overwhelming evidence against them who were involved in the murder of many innocent people. Someone who still seeks out ways to kill people even in confinement.
  2. It may be more expensive in America, but it doesn't have to be. There's no need to let someone live on death row for years. That's not how it used to work in Britain, executions were carried out after three Sundays had passed. People were convicted, sentenced and executed in short order. The cost of cremation of the corpse could be done cheaply enough, no more than £1000 per convict, perhaps more cheaply if multiple condemned were cremated together. The execution itself need not be expensive, just a bit of rope and a trapdoor. The executioner and their team would need paying of course but then so do normal prison guards. Executions could cost less than keeping an inmate locked up for a few months, all in.
  3. The state over-reach argument doesn't hold up. It might if we lived in a free society which left people to their own devices, but we most certainly do not. The state has immense power over us and we live in a country where we have to behave in a certain way. We are so brainwashed most people don't even realise it. We pay a huge amount in taxes and the whole system is designed to benefit the super-rich, whichever party is in power. Even if you don't agree with me on this and think our country is a perfect democracy, by extension you'd also have to accept that in that case it would be perfectly acceptable for the voters to vote for a party that would enable convicts to be put to death. It's not over-reach if it's what people vote for.
Show quote history

A small risk is not no risk and overwhelming evidence can be fabricated when motivation to convict is high. Birmingham six, Guildford Four etc.

The reason the cost is so high in America is that they have to go through due process. They allow multiple appeals to make sure that they have the right person and even then they get it wrong. If you’re saying we do it all in three days then you multiply the risk of miscarriages of justice exponentially. No appeals, no new evidence and no chance of previously undiscovered witnesses coming forward and DNA isn’t the magic bullet you think it is.

The other reason the cost is so high is if you sentence them to death, you have to remove them from the general prison population as they are a huge threat to the prisoners and staff around them. If they are that much of a threat then you need an awful lot of staff to manage them safely.

As for state overreach not being an issue. It might not be today but things change and they can change quickly and if the Fanta Fuhrer in the states hasn’t shown you that, then you haven’t been concentrating. Give the state the right to kill people and you give the state the right to kill you.

Finally, the big argument for capital punishment is deterrence. The highest murder rate in developed countries is in USA and Russia and they have the death penalty.

Let’s face facts, the reason most people are calling for capital crime in this case is because his brothers crime was so unusual. So we should change our entire criminal justice system, ruin our international reputation and risk the death of innocents is so we can kill one religious nut job? Bear in mind the religious nut job would welcome his death because he thinks he’s going to an eternal paradise with 72 virgins

PassingStranger · 14/04/2025 21:47

travellinglighter · 14/04/2025 21:41

A small risk is not no risk and overwhelming evidence can be fabricated when motivation to convict is high. Birmingham six, Guildford Four etc.

The reason the cost is so high in America is that they have to go through due process. They allow multiple appeals to make sure that they have the right person and even then they get it wrong. If you’re saying we do it all in three days then you multiply the risk of miscarriages of justice exponentially. No appeals, no new evidence and no chance of previously undiscovered witnesses coming forward and DNA isn’t the magic bullet you think it is.

The other reason the cost is so high is if you sentence them to death, you have to remove them from the general prison population as they are a huge threat to the prisoners and staff around them. If they are that much of a threat then you need an awful lot of staff to manage them safely.

As for state overreach not being an issue. It might not be today but things change and they can change quickly and if the Fanta Fuhrer in the states hasn’t shown you that, then you haven’t been concentrating. Give the state the right to kill people and you give the state the right to kill you.

Finally, the big argument for capital punishment is deterrence. The highest murder rate in developed countries is in USA and Russia and they have the death penalty.

Let’s face facts, the reason most people are calling for capital crime in this case is because his brothers crime was so unusual. So we should change our entire criminal justice system, ruin our international reputation and risk the death of innocents is so we can kill one religious nut job? Bear in mind the religious nut job would welcome his death because he thinks he’s going to an eternal paradise with 72 virgins

Show quote history

He only thinks that if he's a suicide bomber and dies for his cause.
I suspect this creature in Belmarsh would not want to be hung, because it's not his choice.

ItsUpToYou · 14/04/2025 22:10

JunkShopper · 14/04/2025 15:00

Just a reminder that in the nascent age of AI, there's no longer even any such thing as "irrefutable" video evidence.

The world's most powerful country is currently run by someone who happily and unashamedly produced faked footage of their opponent as part of their election campaign. And people still believe in irrefutable video evidence? Jesus.

Show quote history

I’ve been scrolling through to see if this had already been brought up before I commented it. Glad to see it has!

I am deeply concerned that this thread is so divided. A few years ago, I’m sure the general consensus would have been that the death penalty is simply unethical. The shift in tone seems quite noticeable to me. It worries me that views that just recently would have been considered leaning far to the right are now being discussed as if they are reasonably centrist views.

ElbowsUp · 14/04/2025 22:17

ItsUpToYou · 14/04/2025 22:10

I’ve been scrolling through to see if this had already been brought up before I commented it. Glad to see it has!

I am deeply concerned that this thread is so divided. A few years ago, I’m sure the general consensus would have been that the death penalty is simply unethical. The shift in tone seems quite noticeable to me. It worries me that views that just recently would have been considered leaning far to the right are now being discussed as if they are reasonably centrist views.

Show quote history

To be fair, support for the death penalty has generally hovered in and around the 40-50% range in the UK, and I dont think there's been a notable shift. I remember prior Mumsnet threads also having a lot of death-penalty supporters.

PrimitivePerson · 14/04/2025 22:38

Imagine what would happen to our international reputation if we reintroduced the death penalty. It just doesn't bear thinking about. The only country in Europe that retains it is Belarus, which is even worse than Russia for human rights, and not massively better than North Korea.

We're better than that, thank goodness.

travellinglighter · 15/04/2025 00:16

PassingStranger · 14/04/2025 21:47

He only thinks that if he's a suicide bomber and dies for his cause.
I suspect this creature in Belmarsh would not want to be hung, because it's not his choice.

Show quote history

Has he told you that or are you assuming?

It’s a commonly held belief in his religion. If you tell him today that he is going to die then he’ll almost certainly believe he’s facing a martyrs death.

Icanhearabee · 15/04/2025 00:34

I used to be firmly against the DP, but I’m fed up of people committing unspeakable acts of violence towards innocent people (often children), as if life has no value and now firmly feel that where there is absolutely no doubt of someone’s guilt, where there has been multiple witnesses to their despicable acts that there should be the DP.

Maitri108 · 15/04/2025 00:36

Icanhearabee · 15/04/2025 00:34

I used to be firmly against the DP, but I’m fed up of people committing unspeakable acts of violence towards innocent people (often children), as if life has no value and now firmly feel that where there is absolutely no doubt of someone’s guilt, where there has been multiple witnesses to their despicable acts that there should be the DP.

Edited

It doesn't bother you that innocent people could be killed?

Icanhearabee · 15/04/2025 00:42

Maitri108 · 15/04/2025 00:36

It doesn't bother you that innocent people could be killed?

Show quote history

I wouldn’t ever want there to be any possibility of innocent people being killed, no. I only mean in exceptional cases where their crimes were committed in front of multiple witnesses or where there is video evidence of their crimes.

ElbowsUp · 15/04/2025 00:45

Icanhearabee · 15/04/2025 00:42

I wouldn’t ever want there to be any possibility of innocent people being killed, no. I only mean in exceptional cases where their crimes were committed in front of multiple witnesses or where there is video evidence of their crimes.

Show quote history

People have been executed on the basis of mistaken or fraudulent witness evidence in the past.

As a PP pointed out, how reliable is video evidence in a world with deep fakes and AI?

If you support the death penalty in any instance, you have to accept that it will certainly lead to innocent people being killed by the state, as it invariably has in the past (and continues to in places like the US).

Icanhearabee · 15/04/2025 00:52

Randomer27 · 13/04/2025 20:11

So you’re up for public beheadings?

Show quote history

I hardly think the OP would be in support of that. I mean it’s not used as a method of DP in the US for example is it.