Why are we letting children call the shots?

[trivi]

Apparently the advice now is to let your child get down from the table when then feel like it during dinner etc. If they don’t feel like eating and want to play with their toys, coming and going as they please, then that should be permitted.
Please help me understand the rationale for this? And at what age should this stop? Surely this doesn’t prepare them for school? Or life in general for that matter 😅 AIBU for thinking this advice is ludicrous??

Indeed. I think Gen Z are pretty great actually.

I responded to your post and I can assure you I do not aspire to perfect parenting. I just have some non-negotiables. FWIW, minus the exploring in restaurants, I actually think your son sounds fantastic.

My daughter didn't respond to everything, no.
At 16, she still can't tie her laces properly, still has to think to differentiate left from right; and at one point would have a room looking like a pigsty.

Some things I can sort out, some I can't. Some I accept and some I don't.
Sometimes we butt heads, but ultimately she understands that somethings just won't be tolerated.

@TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis , dunnow what happened to the tag.

Today's parents consider their children's needs way more than previous generations did. That is why we aren't teaching our children to be seen and not heard by whipping them.

As someone who grew up with guidance and boundaries I like to think I had an enjoyable childhood and maintained a close relationship with both parents until they died and have become a respectful hard working adult who has fun. I also brought my daughter up with those values and we’re very very close, nowadays children have no respect or relationship with their parents because they have never needed to respect them and feel they deserve respect so are entitled as adults.
I’d hate to be brought up today, work hard and play hard was the motto now play hard and expect.

I hate to be that person who diagnoses people online but all those traits you mention are very common in dyspraxia. It might not be something that you feel she needs any more support with, but if you do feel she might benefit then most universities/colleges can investigate.

I don't think it's true that all children are "natural-born explorers." I have met several who will not leave the side of their parent or caregiver or interact with anyone they don't know very well.

That's very kind, thank you. She gets on fine, but it never hurts to have an understanding of why you struggle with a particular thing; so I'll look into this 😊.

It's utter nonsense. Bloody gentle parents desperate to include their young children in absolutely everything to make sure their child feels valued and 'seen'.

It's why children are now so stressed and overwhelmed by life. The very most responsibility they should have is choosing what colour crayon to use next.

Most parents I've ever known have gone with a parenting approach that's more-or-less reasonable and middle-of-the-road. Not idiotically letting their kids run the house while they stupidly smile and nod along like bobbleheads. Nor controlling and bullying their kids along in a cruel and unnecessary military style.

I think the extremes in parenting either way have always been around and have always been widely considered dysfunctional. I'm not a fan of "everything was better in the past" blather.

I agree on the dyspraxia signs - I have dyspraxia myself.

I understood about the coordination stuff when I was young, but I didn't know about traits such as daydreaming, and sometimes a lack of ability to plan. Worth looking at the decision/behaviour side of things as well as the physical.

It's actually not uncommon for dyspraxia sufferers to walk early but skip crawling - but crawling is actually important for other gross motor skills, and even fine motor like writing (I skipped crawling and walked at 8 months).

(Interestingly some believe that dyspraxia is caused by a lack of dominance of left brain or right brain, because for most people a dominant side dictates your movements. Which some believe makes some dyspraxics more "all rounders" in creative vs technical skills.)

or even read it...

Who would listen to this advice? I am afraid in my life i was the parent, i made the rules.

Since we descended from the trees and exchanged contracts on a nice cave bordering an up-and-coming district of the savannah, every single middle-aged generation has been convinced that kids these days aren't getting enough discipline, have no boundaries, will grow up to be spoilt brats who can't cope with the real-world necessity to get up every day to hunt and gather, and it's all the fault of the parents.

"But...but...now it's true! You should see them at bus stops!"

Yeah, yeah. We're living out the the final days of civilisation. The only hope for humankind is a renewed focus on the proper way to hold a fork.

According to whom is this the advice?
We practice gentle parenting with our son, however we implement boundaries. Dinner time for example - he has to sit sensibly at the dinner table. He needs to try everything that is on his plate (if he doesn’t like it, fine, but he has to try), he is allowed to leave food when he says he is full. He must ask politely to leave the table to go and play with toys. There is a fine line to tread between permissive parenting (what you talk about in the OP) and gentle parenting. We want our son to feel he has control and power over aspects of his life whilst still having the reassurance of boundaries set by us.

I spend loads of time around teenagers. They have plenty of respect for those who deserve it. What they don’t have is blind respect for every older person, nor a fear of adults. And neither they should. They also have opinions they aren’t afraid to share. No shame in that.

I’m not sure why you think you deserve respect from a generation you are so ignorant about and scathing of.

And for goodness sakes make sure their shirts are tucked in and they have the right colour of shoes on 🤦🏻‍♀️

Haven't rtft but I work with young kids and we also get this guidance from the education Dept (not UK). There was a leaning towards child initiated things and more choice over the past few years, most of which was positive but the latest guidelines are getting ridiculous. I have a training seminar in a few days and I know it will be about this. For example at circle time, I think some places call it carpet time, we tell the kids to sit down and we chat, sing and engage. All vital for social skills. Some children need reminders to stay focused if they start rolling around or messing and many need a reminder every few minutes but then they listen for a minute or two before drifting again. Without the reminders they would not listen at all. If a child refuses to join us we don't drag them and pin them down of course but they are told firmly and if there is absolute refusal they are allowed sit quietly elsewhere, most children who struggle here are those with additional needs. Our latest advice is not to tell the children to join the circle but to 'invite' them and respect their choice. A few children in every group would choose no and continue playing with the same thing they were already engaged in. They will not learn to speak confidently to a group or learn to listen or concentrate or develop strategies to help themselves sit still. The ones who don't like circle time as much are always the ones who already have poor focus and communication skills and need it most. The gap will widen between the children and these kids will start school completely unprepared.

The previous approach was choice within a limited range so saying 'we are painting today, what 3 colours do you want'. This allows children to reflect on their own preferences and assert themselves and gain confidence. Asking them what do you want to do today put huge responsibility on their shoulders and most can't deal with this. Half them would be sitting there eating snot all day if they weren't encouraged not to, they are mentally incapable IMO of making proper decisions and need calm guidance from an adult.

I was in a queue for a till (number 1 ) in a Lidl the other day and a mother and a young child joined just before me. However,it soon transpired that the child did not like this till (number 1). "No,not number 1" were her words! Luckily,it was announced that till number 5 was opening and they left to join the queue for number 5. I have no idea what would have happened if they had not opened a new till. Would we have had a full tantrum? Would the mother had to wait for another till to open?

No wonder the country is in the state it is. What happened to parenting and discipline? Shocking. No child would be allowed to behave like that if I was responsible for them.

With all respect have you thought about changing your teaching methods so that children can engage? Sometime you’re asking children to do things that are not developmentally appropriate for them. Perhaps some of them would learn better if they can move? In this day and age we know that brains are structured differently. You seem to be writing off any presumably quite young child who can’t engage (sit still keep quiet) the way you have decided they must.

That's so interesting!

I have dyspraxia and was the exact same, skipped crawling, walked at 9 months.

I'm definitely an all rounder, and didn't develop a "handedness" until I was 8 or 9.

I will, thank you 😊. That might help her get a bit more organised. The room issue was always around lack of planning and then rifling through last minute, making an absolute mess.

She was an early walker too. At around 6 months she pulled herself up against the bath, stepped off, fell hard then spent the next 7 months crawling or holding on to surfaces all the way round the room to get anywhere 😀. She'd never just walk across the room. All makes sense now.

It's just my theory. If you have a large family then you just don't have the time to sit down and reason through every single activity with them, while they argue among themselves about - well, absolutely everything and half of them aren't even listening. It is a whole lot easier to spend hours chatting through actions with one child. So it's not a 'all only children don't have boundaries', more of an 'it's easier to gentle parent, to be more tolerant and more hands on and explanatory when you only have one or two children'. Trying it with more kids, particularly if they have very small age gaps (I had five kids in seven years) is usually a hiding to nothing and the discipline has to be more absolute.

@BungleandGeorge I think we do already make allowances though. Most of the circle time is spent doing action songs and those who absolutely can't sit still get a wiggle cushion if they need it. What they are not allowed do is run around and pull at their classmates. They are only asked to keep quiet if another child is speaking, out of respect. If we didn't enforce this the child who is trying to speak would be treated very unfairly. It's only for about 10 minutes and there is no formal teaching, its all engagement. In my experience almost all children will happily sit down and engage when told to, but some wouldn't if they had the choice and therefore not develop communication skills. I accept there may be other ways and am always ready to listen to different views but I really feel full open choice is bad for them.

I agree completely and I have 2 children.

I think the new societal shift towards only children, or 2 at most, has changed parenting.

I wonder if some (obviously not all) of the decline in birth rate is because many parents feel obliged to do all this child led stuff with and it's just too fucking exhausting to even think about doing that with a bigger family.