Why are we letting children call the shots?

[trivi]

Apparently the advice now is to let your child get down from the table when then feel like it during dinner etc. If they don’t feel like eating and want to play with their toys, coming and going as they please, then that should be permitted.
Please help me understand the rationale for this? And at what age should this stop? Surely this doesn’t prepare them for school? Or life in general for that matter 😅 AIBU for thinking this advice is ludicrous??

A health visitor. What do THEY know?
So a nurse, in other words. Might just be her own opinion.

Apparently the advice now is to let your child get down from the table when then feel like it during dinner etc. If they don’t feel like eating and want to play with their toys, coming and going as they please, then that should be permitted.

Since when did parents become incapable of thinking for themselves? Do what you think is right, forget the self-styled experts, the advice from money making books and, most of all, ignore MN!

I'm not letting him have devices, but until he's a bit older and able to properly read/draw at the table, yes, I'm going to follow him around whilst he explores the (child friendly) restaurant whilst the food is getting ready.

I'm sure the staff and other families will be delighted to have a toddler wandering around in the restaurant.

Get a grip please @TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis

Honestly, I've got plenty. Don't worry about me.

Exactly what we still do! My children ask to get down from the table and then thank whoever has cooked/prepared their meal for them! Always been done from a young age and it’s just natural to them.

Not worried about you, worried about the people who have to encounter you.

My point wasn't about how well ed psychs or I raised children, it was about whether or not the ludicrous assertion that all children behave the same was true.

But I notice that very few people are willing to engage with my questions about whether their kids who were good at sitting in restaurants had any other areas where they needed support.

I am in fact surprised that these paragons of parenting who never needed to work on any aspect of child behaviour or development weren't referenced in studies due to their abounding genius.

Or MAYBE they faced different challenges with their children and MAYBE my son is better than their kids were at those things. But who knows,I suppose I ought to go back to inadequately raising my child.

Rein

Again, not one is forcing or padlocking or having any child screaming around here. I refer you to my previous response.
My youngest nephew was a wriggling explorer (among other things) himself. He soon learned that if you don't sit, you don't eat. You can explore while everyone else eats, and when you're good and hungry, you can sit and eat too.
No-one was spending dinner time following him around at his house, my parents' house or mine. By the time he got to a restaurant he knew to sit down and eat/draw/sleep or chat.

I understand that seems fantastical to you, but for me it really isn't anything special. My daughter's first time in a decent restaurant was at 6 months old for a celebration. Not a scream or fidget. We went out regularly and they behaved.

They were not unicorn babies. Just well behaved ones who practised what they were accustomed to 🤷🏾‍♀️. It is highly likely when you're not being ridiculous, you see many of the same children behaving well all around you.

My daughter's first screaming event was at 2 years old - the first time she had to sit in her own seat on a flight. Take out scared the shit out of her and she screamed. The lovely cabin crew came over when the seatbelt signs went off and played a light on/seat belt on, light off/seat belt off game with her and that was it! She was quiet for landing. That was that. Most children do not go around screaming just because they can't have their own way.

If anything, I’d be impressed they were making the effort to do that rather than just sticking the child in-front of a screen.
This also doesn't impress me, because children have been sitting well at tables long before screens.

Many restaurants cater to families with babies/toddlers because without their custom they would go out of business.

We went to Giraffe a lot when ours were little, in the day so early lunchtime at lot of the time, almost every table in there were families.

You were welcome to walk your toddler around, it wasn't hard to avoid waiting staff, you didn't set them free you held their hand, took them to the window or had a look at the wall pictures.

There is a pub with a fairly 'posh' eating area, tables covered with tall thin stemmed glassware, type thing. There was no way we would take our toddlers in there, it wouldn't have been enjoyable for them, us or anyone else.

A place that hands out crayons and a colouring in mat, yes of course you take them there.

Anyone would think you can only eat in one establishment.

We don't eat at a table every day but when my dc need too they certainly can.
Impossible when dd was a toddler she would not sit still.

The bottom line is not letting children call the shots but knowing your child and working with them and when it's age appropriate. Rather than forcing like victoriana values into them and doing something because our parents did it to us

I couldn't get mine to sit but she is fine now.

No. We don’t all know. Words have meaning. So if I’m dealing with someone who chooses to use the word trained when it comes to a child that tends to show up as a red flag for me.

Derrida and his followers have so much to answer for.

One person I know had me pretty agog watching the way they handled their child's eating. Primary school age.

They would prop them up at a table or on the sofa, lay out a line of jellybeans or gummy bears/smarties, get them to watch YouTube, and very forcefully and vigorously cajole and celebrate etc. so they'd eat a spoonful of their meal, zoned out, and then get a gummy bear in their mouth. Every mouthful was 'WOW! WELL DONE! THAT'S AMAZING! GOOD GIRL!'. Mouthful of pasta, gummy bear. Mouthful of pasta, gummy bear.

It was insane. And very awkward when we would go over to eat and my kid would want to know why so and so could have screens at the table and they couldn't, why they got sweets while eating dinner and they didn't. Obviously I handled it and explained everyone does things differently. But it was utterly bizarre.

A friend of mine used to let her son grab at snacks while he was running around playing rather than sitting properly at a table....

She stopped allowing it the day I had to perform abdominal thrusts on her son after he choked and stopped breathing as he'd been running around with some carrot in his mouth.

Why would you feel the need to follow guidance that you don’t believe is correct? It doesn’t matter what the possible rationale may be, you presumably believe, as do many many people, that good table manners, as well as other manners are important. I can’t imagine ever letting my daughter leave the table without permission and wandering off in the middle of a meal.

TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis

You're getting a tough time here, but I'm with you. A very small child won't necessarily have the capacity or ability to be able to sit quietly for a long stretch of time, especially if hungry, and in some restaurants food might take a long while. I'd much rather see a parent carefully watch their child toddling around a bit than see someone stick a screen in front of them to shut them up and keep them still. Idk why everyone presumes you lack the common sense to watch them properly and that you're too dim to notice if your child is about to trip up a water carrying a kettle full of hot tea or walking into the kitchen. It's not rocket science. In most restaurants there are people walking around, areas that are fine (going to the bathroom and back, going out to the foyer, going outside for a walk down the street, etc.).

People are very insistent you just need to force them to sit in the chair and that's that. Kids need practice and experience going out to get good at it. At two did my kid manage to just sit quietly for the whole meal? No. One of us would take him off to explore a bit, safely. At 5, due to lots of practice, he's great at it. Lovely table manners, can order, understands how it all works etc.

I'd hate to think of anyone seeing this thread thinking they can't take their child out to eat because everyone is silently judging them if they walk around with their toddler for a bit. Obviously you don't let them bother anyone else, watch diners intently, get in anyone's way, cause a scene, but I don't think anyone is going to kick up a storm and be furious if a 2yr old walks past the table on their way to the bathroom with a parent watching closely.

I found a good place to teach table manners was fast food places like McDonalds. Still a restaurant, still requires ordering, sitting, not putting feet on the chair, not getting in anyone's way, clearing up, practicing sitting and waiting for food. And more low key.

I work with children and it seems this is secondhand information and taken out of context.

This is not the general advice, although it may be appropriate in some contexts for some children.

Why have we become a bunch of doormats? Because we’ve been guilt tripped about claiming authority over those less capable or competent. We’ve been sold Assertiveness as the ideal, which promotes individuality, and we’ve been sold Authority as evil, because it pisses off individuals.

"Getting down from the table" - blimey, OP, that's a phrase I haven't heard for a while 😝

I don't mind it at all tbh, but it's something my mum might have said to us during my fairly working-class childhood in the 70s.

Funnily enough, we only ever ate at the dining table on a Sunday generally in those days, as I recall...most of the rest of the 70s and 80s was spent eating tea off our knees in front of the all-important telly. I bet many families were the same ofc.

However, that massively changed for our own children - 90% of the time we ate at the table in the kitchen/diner which was/is much more the way of living of the 00s/10s/20s than a separate dining room, isn't it?

Less formal, and was a good way for us to eat together as a fam most nights (when the kids were home - 2 of them have left now 😥)

Not sure I would have ever have used that phrase to them, but yep, they can't just be allowed to come and go as they please...

With posher/European work colleagues when eating out, they generally say "bon appetite" before eating, which I like, so I've tried getting the kids to say that rather than just tucking in...plus, I try to encourage a nice chat after people have finished their food - I call it a "sobre mesa" (learnt from time spent Latin America).

"Over the table" - extended chat without being distracted by actual eating...lucky to get much of that most of the time, tbh, but I try.

I'd like to say that they ask permission to "get down from the table" after the end of the sobre mesa, but they don't ofc - perhaps I should tempt them to stay with the promise of a bowl of butterscotch Angel Delight like in the good ol' days 😁

I've said it before but we are really going to suffer because if this type of wishy-washy, child-centred parenting in the future.
We are already seeing posts about people coming into the workplace with no resilience and expecting everything to revolve around them.
I know it's deeply, deeply unfashionable on MN, but the way children are being brought up today is doing no one any favours. You only have to scan MN just about every day and there are threads about gps doing something like allowing a child to eat sweets and they poster is told to pretty much cut off contact, or teachers not prioritising your child over everyone else's, or nursery 'ignoring' a child for 5 mins and the advice is always extreme,. such as remove the child from nursery, complain to the school etc.
It's a given that everyone thinks their child is special, but where things have changed seems to be that today's parents think their child is special to everyone else, and their wandering around a restaurant etc is charming. It isn't.
We need to wake up to this before we raise children who are increasingly self-absorbed, self-important and selfish, although it's probably too late now.

TBH if you have a very active and lively baby/toddler, any eating-out experience can be fraught. Unless it was summer and we could go to a pub with a garden for him to run around in, we stopped taking human-hurricane Gds anywhere to eat. Unless he was actually eating, sitting still at the table was an ask too far.

By 4-ish he was miles better though.

Rather than becoming exercised at some nameless advice giver, perhaps this is an opportunity to try some independent thinking OP. And parenting that meets the needs of your individual family?

There is no room in our home for a family dinner table, so none of mine ‘sit up’ to eat. You would probably faint at our relaxed approach to our family dinner times!

They are also perfectly well behaved in restaurants, impeccable at friends houses and lovely company eating out generally. Because they understand the difference and have appropriate manners for the situation. How could this possibly be!

I agree. I have worked with some children with SEND who have significant eating difficulties where it would be absolutely appropriate and necessary to take a very 'low pressure' approach to mealtimes, including eliminating the demand to sit still and remain at the table for the duration of the meal. I find it very difficult to believe that professionals are giving this advice as something that should be applied to all children.

until he's a bit older and able to properly read/draw at the table, yes, I'm going to follow him around whilst he explores the (child friendly) restaurant whilst the food is getting ready

Just because it's child friendly, doesn't mean everyone wants your child racing around them while they try to chat and eat.

@TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis same all our eating kit was totally redundant with dd2, even car seat was a battle push chair she didn't like restraint