To think food choices aren't everything regarding longevity?

[ThePigandPear]

I see a lot of food threads here and on other websites where people clash over what constitutes healthy foods, upf, etc.
I have a good diet and would like to remain fit, but I get the feeling that a lot of people choose to obsess over food because it is something they think they can control in a very uncertain world.

One person will suggest obesity has risen in tow with ultra processed foods.
Another will say "no! it's seed oils, low fat, sugar and so on!".
But few people suggest increasing car use, or having become far more sedentary, since these are lifestyle factors that many don't feel they have control over.
It is simpler to blame food.

So a healthy diet is very important, but what about sleep quality, stress, social connection, mental health and activity? A lot of those are very complicated and can't be as easily fixed.
I recall thinking this after reading about the famous Blue Zones, that the elder population were out playing tennis and gardening with company most days. However, the Blue Zones centenarians have been more recently debunked...

Sadly I have known a few people with very healthy lifestyle's and diets become ill or disabled, and a few who have died young. And there are always examples of that chain smoking great uncle who lived to 104 on beer, bacon and lard.

Good, healthy food is one thing we can make an impact with, but it is only a small part of the story, for me. The healthiest older people I have known have been very active (a LOT of walking), from hiking to just getting around on foot. They have also kept a social life outside of their home, and oddly enough, been single!
This is only from my own experience of course.
My mum was the very image of yoga, healthy eating, mediation, yet still suffered some debilitating health issues that could not be controlled by lifestyle, and became somewhat reclusive and sedentary in her old age as she had lost her community links. Family members who have got out there and kept doing stuff did seem to live much longer lives, regardless some bad habits (luck permitting).

I just don't think some good bread with peanut butter for brekkie is going to make a massive difference, or the occasional jar of supermarket sauce, unless I am piping adulterated shit down my throat 24-7.

Don't quote me on this... but isn't intermittent fasting meant to be the way to longevity?

I think genetics has a lot to do with it
My grandad is 97 and has only just stopped playing golf. Average diet, enjoys a drink, never smoked
My family doesn’t have any history of heart or lung issues or diabetes or cancer at all
Dementia is the main thing and I try not to think about it too much or I end up having panic attacks at 3am
I did an advanced directive which seemed the most sensible thing to do, don’t want to live until I’m 100 if 25 years of that is with dementia

In "The Road To Wigan Pier" by George Orwell, published in 1935, there is a discussion of the tendency of the do-gooding middle classes to criticise "inferior" diets. Not much has changed since.

Also, the scientific field of nutritional epidemiology (i.e., the study of the effects of diet on health) is a bin fire, with almost everything being hopelessly confounded with other factors, plus the influence of lobbyists on all sides. We know that people who eat fresh fruit and vegetables live longer – but we also know that people who eat foie gras and caviar live longer, as do those who own yachts, and nobody claims that those latter factors are casual.

Oh, and it seems that "blue zones" appear to be mostly statistical artifacts due to poor record keeping and/or pension fraud: jheor.org/post/2682-ig-nobel-prize-winning-research-longevity-claims-may-reflect-lousy-birth-and-death-recordkeeping-more-than-accurate-human-lifespans

My MIL is 94 and could probably run a marathon but her dementia has ruined any chance of her enjoying her physical health!
My Mm died aged 83 from an aneurysm but she had an amazing life ,enjoyed her garden,a few cigarettes,and the odd sherry !

I think you make some very good points !

I was going to mention blue zones and trying to incorporate as much of that as you can. Interestingly one of those studies, not sure what country, highlighted eating less than your calorie requirements and remaining somewhat underweight, which is a surprise because in other studies I thought I read that being very slightly overweight in the very elderly is a protective factor for health.

Don't know about longevity but cutting out upf and going keto has cured my allergies. I had chronic sinustitis and was congested all the time. Struggled for over 2 years. It was horrible. Took loads of medication for it (have seen various doctors) with no effect. They were saying I might need surgery...

Radical diet change has cured it. It took several months.

I do agree with you but at the same time I think a healthy diet is crucial. I've seen the difference it makes to my own life. I've seen the difference a poor diet makes to other people my age (50).
Of course, it's only part of the picture - sleep, stress reduction and exercise are very important too. Not to mention genes.
I think we over complicated things these days in terms of food. I look at how my grandparents ate and it was simple food. Absolutely no ultra processed food because it didn't exist. Just meat and two veg type meals. All very natural. They didn't snack, they didn't drink. They were very active. They lived to a ripe old age.

This is where the conservation is simplistic and rose tinted though. That generation weren’t healthy- and certainly not healthier than us now.
They didn’t eat processed food. only because it’s wasn’t available, not because of some moral superiority.

They also didn’t hydrate, didn’t eat 5 fruit and veg a day, didn’t eat high levels of protein, all stuff that is commonplace in the uk now despite the myth that we all live off Frosties and pot noodles.

it was simple- because they didn’t have choices- but that doesn’t equate healthy. It was common to eat fried breakfast, excessive simple carbs, urban or poorer people ate things like sugar sandwiches and fed their newborns on carnation milk. It was an awful time!

I think the most unhealthy food related thing people do is the obsession about food, I try and eat a balanced diet, less processed food but eat what I want when I feel like it sometimes, my whole life is not food

I think this is a big part of it - wanting to feel like they have control. You see the same dynamic in people who rant about benefit claimants and the homeless - 'they should have stopped smoking/ stopped buying takeaways/ cancelled their Sky subscription' because the idea that the majority are one paycheck away from homelessness is just too frightening. We derive a sense of control by focusing on little things we're directly in charge of - eating avocados, having an ISA, walking instead of driving, drinking green tea - because if we spend too much time thinking about genetics, industrial pollution, global financial markets or the unknown long term effects of decisions we're making now it has the potential to completely paralyse us.

I think people are aware it's not entirely down to food but it is something you can control.

Studies have found certain foods reduce the risk of heart disease and cancer etc. On the flipside, others increase the risks.

I think good diet does help and I can't say i've come accross many people who pay attention to what they eat who don't also try to exercise, sleep well etc

Interesting thread.

hadn’t thought about food replacing religion but yeah it has many parallels. different “beliefs” competing, claiming to deliver nirvana (“You’ll be your best ever self with Keffir!”), doing each other down (“slimming world is crap, being vegan is the only way..,”), and the transference of vice and virtue onto how and what we eat rather than how we behave.

shame - now relates to body weight and eating a macdonalds
virtue - relates to never eating pudding, and getting in ten a day multicoloured veg
lust - give me that chocolate cake mmmm
laziness - you mean you don’t cook from scratch?

I think genes is a massive factor too. Both grandparents on one side lived to nearly 100. Post retirement they basically became housebound by choice, sitting watching TV all day. No hobbies, no socialization bar weddings/christenings during the year and they didn't go into the garden either. I could have counted on one hand how many times they went out in one year. Neither had any health issues, and both died after contracting infections in hospital. They both thrived on misery it would appear!

It was the Southern Japanese area, they have a culture of only eating until they are about 80% satisfied. Their staple food was also the purple tuber potato, which is apparently a superfood too. Very little meat either.

I agree in part. Not eating processed foods is worth commenting on though because we can compare then and now - if you look at photos from when my grandparents were young (1930s and 40s) there's a very noticeable difference in size. Nearly everyone (particularly young people) were slim then. The reason why people didn't eat processed foods (eg they didn't exist) isn't really relevant - it's about looking at the effects of processed food on the population now. I'm not saying process foods are the only reason people are fatter now. There are many reasons.
Also, obviously there was a variety of eating habits in those days. My mother grew up in poverty in the 50s and 60s and had a nutritionally poor diet. However, my grandparents (on my dad's side) always ate well. They grew their own fruit and veg and were quite passionate about their home grown produce. I'm certain they ate more than five portions of fruit and veg per day. Although the five portions a day rule might seem like a modern idea, they always knew the importance of eating fruit and vegetables for health. They always ate protein for lunch and dinner. They had their own chickens so had eggs daily and always had meat or fish with each meal, plus vegetables. They were very active people, walking or cycling everywhere, always working in the garden.
I don't believe this is looking at things with rose tinted glasses. It's just how they and many others lived.
Also, I'm not sure people are much healthier today. Yes, people are living longer (although my grandparents lived to 89 and 90) but I feel like I know many older people who are simply being kept alive with poor quality of life. People who a few decades ago would have died at 70 of a heart attack are now kept alive with stents, pacemakers and a cocktail of pills to take each day. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. My parents are amongst these people. I wouldn't say they're healthy though. They just know how to keep people going these days.

Also I find it interesting the things we ignore. This absolute obsession with protein but i bet the adults who meet their fibre target- let alone exceed it 300% as we do with protein- is tiny.

we have a massive uptick in the number of young people diagnosed with bowel cancer.

I massively increased my fibre intake a few years ago following a bowel cancer scare (which is generic to me) and in conversation with people about how challenging it was you wouldn’t believe the number of people who said they have plenty of fibre. One memorable friend said “oh I eat loads and loads of fibre- I had eggs and spinach for breakfast even!” - a meal that contains barely any fibre. You can bet she was avoiding the “carbs” brown bread that would’ve provided some!

What makes you think they didnt hydrate, lacked protein and didnt eat enough fruit and veg?

Eating 'high levels' of protein isnt necessary, you just need enough protein, which unless you have special needs like me, most people do get enough of.

I think what did for previous generations, wasnt diet, it was smoking and drinking. Diets were better in the war than at any time in our history apparently

Yes some people did eat sugar sandwiches, Ive heard of this.

We want to feel we have control. People feel powerless, but they get the idea that, by eating this and not eating that (and the more stringent and time consuming the diet then the more they become absorbed in its power to make them healthy, well and long lived) they can go on forever. They think they've taken control over ageing and illness.

When basically a lot of it comes down to genes. Yes, you can help yourself a little by eating healthy food and exercising and keeping your weight down, but basically we're all going to go sometime. We all know someone who's ten stone overweight, has no health problems, smokes 20 a day and is already 90. Equally we all know a probiotic wholefood eating yoga guru who has some dreadful disease and is going to be dead by 40.

But we all think there's a secret. There really isn't. Much of it is the luck of the draw, so have that cream bun and enjoy it.

I think the only thing that really influences a persons health is genes, lifestyle factors not so much.

I know 3 people in their 90s -all smoked or were exposed to cigarette smoke, all drink alcohol, all eat regular fry-ups, white bread, salt, eat only cakes for their evening meal, 2 proudly tell everyone that they don’t eat vegetables and neither has eaten salad in their life, all 3 only drink sugary cups of tea, 2 are very sedentary, had sit down jobs, drive everywhere, 1 walks a lot. All 3 are in good health.

Where as I know a healthy, outdoorsy vegetarian who died of cancer very young. I also know a marathon runner who dropped down dead in their 40s of a heart attack. I also know 2 people in their early 80s who only ate organic and whole foods who died of cancer.

So from my experiences I really don’t believe that diet plays much of a part in health. I think it’s just genetics.

My knowledge of my own grandparents- all born between 1915 and 1930- a mix of urban Londoners and Irish farmers. They never, ever drank water- in fact I remember when bottled water become available in shops and everyone thought the idea of drinking- let alone paying for- water was crazy. Children and some adults drank it with squash. Older people drank tea, exclusively.

my grandparents ate simple, low
nutrition meals- eggs and corned beef, mince and potatoes, steak and kidney pie, stews- the non potato veg would be a singular portions usually carrots. Breakfast was porridge or a fry up.
They liked cake and some family members baked almost daily. Lunch and dinner were followed by stodgy puddings with custard.

the were all overweight later in life when their physical work reduced- that’s the stereotype of the stocky farmers wife, right?

protein has always been expensive, certainly not eaten to the extent it is now.

whilst some people might’ve grown their own veg and raised chickens, this was no more common than it is now. There was a huge urban and industrial population then

The food you quote is good nutrition food, not sure why you think its low nutrition.

I dont drink any water at all. My fluid intake is solely tea. I am perfectly hydrated. You dont need to drink water to be hydrated, you need to drink fluid as long as its not sugary, alcoholic fluid. My GP is happy with this but you can also read about fluid intake online for the details.

And it is crazy to pay for bottled water!

I always laugh at that advice about ‘don’t eat anything your grandmother wouldn’t recognise as food’ because the food my grandmother recognised was bread and dripping and endless cups of tea with vast quantities of sugar. There’s a lot of classism in beliefs around food. And a lot of privilege. I’m vegetarian for ethical reasons and my grandparents would have been shocked that someone would be able to afford meat and reject it.

Well, a healthy diet (mostly veg-based, low-sugar) and a moderately active lifestyle has been scientifically proven to prolong life in general. It doesn't mean keto and daily run. See e.g. Japan. I'd stick to that.

This is also good for preventing DVT