To wonder if all those gleeful about PIP cuts are going to welcome people with serious mental health conditions as colleagues and employees?

[Somethingthecatdraggedin7]

Given the amount of ableisism I see on MN I think the likelihood of people welcoming people with serious mental health conditions into their workplace is pretty low.
And yes, these people will very likely now be forced to try to work even though their condition makes it impossible. We are not just talking about some lazy twenty year old who expects to sit at home gaming due to his “anxiety” as many people seem to believe is the case. It will be people with significant impairments to social functioning.
Even if they get support to apply for jobs, and even if they then get the position (doubtful) how accommodating will colleagues or customers be if the person seems a bit odd, or gets adjustments workmates deem unfair?
This is going to be a total shit show.

I think most of us probably know someone who works the system. There are some idle and feckless people out there.

but just because they exist doesn’t mean that the vast majority claiming benefits are undeserving.

When I say "tax the rich" I'm talking about taxing the very rich - billionaires and those who make their money from their wealth and who pay lower tax rates than the majority of those in work. Rich people like Richie Sunak, worth millions & who paid a lower rate of tax than a nurse working in the NHS.

I want multi national corporations, who make huge profits in this country, to pay their fair share of tax instead of shifting money around to tax havens so they end up paying lower rates of tax than most working people. Companies like Amazon, who for example, paid no Corporation Tax in this Country despite making over £ quarter of a billion profit. In fact Amazon actually received tax credits from the British Government.

Even if we did, how will the economy cope with such a low number of workers? Surely you acknowledge Amazon only make money because people work for them? Billionaires aren’t isolated entities, they require a workforce.

I've worked from age 16 to 72 in 2023 (only retired after 26 years in last job because of C diagnosis, surgery and terrible after effects re food intolerances).
I have suffered with poor mental health from an extremely young age but that was due to anxiety and lack of social skills as children, we were never allowed to go out until socially to a dance until we were 16. (I left home shortly after reaching 16). I also have suffered with depression throughout my life due to bereavements/Relationship breakdowns, but always loved working and having a purpose and I am eager to help others as in clients, customers, public. Since the late 2000's after having good bosses, a colleague got promoted by boss who was retiring, she brought her best mate on board as Deputy Manager and my life changed. They were bullies, plain and simple. Once when Manager was having a go for nothing - others with more experience than her had always complimented me on my work over the years, she suggested I take time off (too thick to see it was her and mate's behaviour that was affecting me), I responded by saying I enjoyed my work and it made me feel better to be busy ). She then snapped "We are not here to make you feel better". There was no human resources to go to- she was the boss and the then Management committee were no better and were just people who liked to tell friends they sat on a Committee, they did not understand the workings of an organisation - charity - (Previous committee were businessmen or retired but still brought a lot to the organisation) - it was a big Charity. The 2 managers were mean and had they been my neighbours or people in the local pub, I would have told them what they were, but of course at work I could not and remained professional. Then they had 2 big fall outs at work - one I witnessed but the other I was out at my appointments. Colleagues said they had thought it was going to come to blows and one wondered if she should ring the Police. Anyway after that they both were much more friendly and the main boss even treat me like a human being after all that time and tried to be my best friend - she then retired. She texted me after she left. I did not respond as I will never be able to forgive the way they treated me and the awful debilitating effect it has had on my life. I would love to return to work but all my confidence and self belief has been stripped away from me and a lot of people/colleagues have no time for people with an illness they can't see and don't understand. A lot of people with MH problems try and disguise or hide feelings rather than be talked about or ridiculed and internalising your problems, and feelings and painting on a smile can be so damaging. Quite often as soon as I reached my home, I burst into tears and that would be another evening wasted. If it hadn't been for my animals who needed me, I would have taken another way out. The next boss was/is a control freak with everyone but I can't even be bothered to speak about her. Sorry to sound so weak and desperate but that is years of work bullying and hiding my own feelings until I reached home. Please be nice, you never know what someone else is going through.

I'm retired now, but worked in a supermarket for over five years before that.
I have a few health issues, two potentially life threatening, but my managers were good, and made reasonable adjustments for me.
I'd taken my hospital referral letters/medical paperwork in for them to have sight of it, so they knew l was genuine. They even said they didn't need to see it, they believed me, but l wanted to keep myself right.

I worked on a checkout. Because of one of my health issues, if l'm on my feet for too long, l can go dizzy or pass out (I was fine sitting on a checkout) I wasn't allowed to shelf fill on the shop floor or work on self scan as l could potentially faint and hurt myself.

One day l was sitting back to back on a checkout with another member of staff l didn't know very well, and someone came and asked me if I'd cover self scan.
I apologised, said l wasn't allowed to, so the person asked the staff member sitting next to me.
While she was cashing her till up to close off, she remarked (and there was no one else in the vicinity but me) "I might say there's something wrong with me, so l don't have to go on there!"
She had no idea of my health issues, and l wasn't about to explain them to her, it was none of her business. But l've worked all my life and l was hurt that someone could think l was malingering or skiving.
I was still working. Just sitting down. My sickness record was fine.

Yes, they've gone very quiet on the growth, haven't they? Just put measures in place to kill it (NI increases).

Oh god next you'll be telling what a laffer curve is...

The "but they'll move" argument is so lazy and has been addressed so many times.
People are mobile, assets are not. You absolutely can tax the assets, this has been discussed in various places and is done by other countries (e.g. China).

If you really genuinely haven't heard these arguments, here they are:

A

Mental health issues come on a huge spectrum.

There are a lot of people who would benefit from stable employment.

Sadly stable employment doesn't amount to the benefit system when you include the housing element.

In my opinion the scope for housing benefit needs to be widened so people can work and not pay it all out on rent.

We have a wide scope in Ireland with the HAP housing payment, you still receive housing benefit while earning up to 35000 on a private rental, similarly rents if you were social housing tenants.

It means more people work, on the older system you couldn't earn much as it would be deducted from rent allowance.

I can't believe so many people are just soaking up the blatant manipulation here and either cannot or will not see the obvious.

Get people to turn on the unemployed, blame them for the state of the country's finances.

Throw stories out there about people who don't want to work gaming The System.

Whip up the froth.

Start slipping in anti disabled sentiment.

Work to get people to see the disabled and the unemployed as the one group.

Expand the stories of unemployed people who don't want to work to include disabled people.

Add stories about people pretending to be disabled in order to not have to work.

Offer 'solutions' that sound great to the hard of thinking but that are, in reality, never going to work.

Encourage an attitude among those unaffected of I'm alright Jack with a side of My Taxes followed by an If They Really Wanted To Work They Would pudding to ensure that people stop caring about what is happening to the most vulnerable in society .

What next? Bring back the institutions? The deserving v the undeserving poor? The disabled enough v the not disabled enough?

The government could tackle huge wastage in the civil service and in the nhs, close tax loopholes that benefit the rich and the big businesses, stop pouring money into ridiculous shit, pack it in with the contracts to their pals, etc etc.

But no. They go after those with the least instead. (Coincidentally, those historically least likely to vote.)

It's kind of funny that everyone screams about Russian bots and manipulation and propaganda while you can sit here and read nothing but uk propaganda intended to manipulate the general population into blaming the most vulnerable for the state of the UK when in reality it's the choices and actions of the richest and most powerful that has led to this.

And people are fucking falling for it. Want to save 5 billion? Cancel the Thames crossing or make it wholly privately funded. It's cost millions already and work's not even started yet. Estimated total cost? 10 billion plus. Half of it public spending. There. 5 billion saved. You're welcome.

I never thought I'd see the day when Labour out-toried the tories.

It’s a joke. My father has Huntingtons disease, he literally cannot cut up his own food due to mobility issues or cook, but because I bring him batch cooked pre-cut food they think this is sustainable. He has mental and physical symptoms due to the degenerative nature of the disease. He can’t work. He can’t even get to work. He gets on a bus and 10 minutes later forgets where he is.

He recently got declined and scored zero. We are awaiting a hearing date. WTAF.

I think there might be some confusion around wealth.

The UK isn't home to all the wealthy people in the world. There are just some of the 'mega-rich,' less than 100 people in the UK.

The tax burden is mostly on the middle class, and they are saying it is too much now and getting worse.

In most, if not all, countries in the world, the benefits system is much more stringent, and putting money into the system is paramount. Think Scandinavia. I think there's some confusion between degrees ofillness and pychpt8c episodes compared to low mood.

English needs more people working to replace those who left mostly from brexit. In a weird way the demographic most impacted by benefit cuts voted brexit. Same in the states red states voted trump he is shredding the social system. I think disabled people like myself need to keep our seat at the table but dispite it getting to people we need to find a way to help the most in need, I think the question is who is that?

I manage a team and I’d like to think that if you asked any of my staff who have specific needs of some sort (of which there are several), they’d all tell you I was very supportive and accommodating of their needs. However, these changes worry me.

it is entirely possible for many more people with physical or mental health needs to be in the workplace. I support that in principle. However, most sectors (particularly public sector or third sector) have set up their workforce model on everyone working at 110% capacity at all times. To include those who need more support means that will have to change and slack will need to be built in. I don’t see many places willing or able to do that, sadly.

I spend a lot of time trying to cover (well-justified) absences with the remaining team. Fortunately, I lead a fantastic team who are always willing, but in the long run I don’t think it would be sustainable if an even higher proportion of my team had various needs.

I will wait to see if Labour bring out anything about employment conditions that will address this…. I really hope they do.

You're not wrong, but people are going to have to just get on with it.

A majority of autistic people can't work because the interview process and the workplace will not accommodate their needs. Most of those people want to be working. It's other people that won't employ them, or allow them to be themselves in the workplace.

I might be very lucky in my workplace, but I work in EDI and have done quite a bit of work around this, and most people do want to understand. I get frequent requests from various teams to come and run workshops on neurodiversity and supporting neurodivergent colleagues, and people generally engage really well with them. I also get managers approaching me for advice with supporting their ND team members. I publish comms about different communication styles and again, these are mostly well-received.

ND people have a HUGE amount to offer, IF they are given the opportunity to do so and not held to NT expectations.

People have been able to get their head around ethnic minorities, women (including pregnant women), and visibly disabled people in the workplace and if, as you say, they don't want their taxes to go towards keeping ND people shut away from the rest of society, they are going to have to learn to work with those people.

But they're also cutting access to work...

That's an interesting point actually, but surely if they're genuinely disabled and can't work then they'll stay on benefits.

I do get we can be hard work. Between us girls I'll tell you my honest rrsponce to one of my first role manger asking me to talk to another collegue was no as the conversation he was suggesting I had seemed illogical. He had an autistic son, told me in a measured tone my assessment was flawed I hadn't spoken to him yet and had no data........... amazing.

Er...its rather simple, we have fair taxation.If you have assets of millions, you get taxed properly, like we used to.

The ratio of CEO pay to average annual national earnings increased from 30:1 in 1968 to 178:1 in 2016.

But we can't afford to look after the most vulnerable in one of the richest countries in the world....OK....

My employer already employs people with mental health, autism and other disabilities. I’ll be honest and I will put my hard hat on, it’s bloody hard.

I get no say in who I work with obviously but I sometimes feel like a social worker/care worker.

I signed a contract to do my job and bring home a wage. Not to have to deal with melt downs, one colleague has severe depression and it can bring the whole unit down and you can cut the atmosphere with a knife.

I would never ever treat them any different and they are lovely people but some days are just exhausting

Tax is the highest among wealthy countries and people are leaving. Also the cost of benefits is growing bigger then is sustainable.

@Somethingthecatdraggedin7 , I don’t think all people who claim sickness benefits are malingerers but interestingly I was speaking to a GP I know recently and they said that the majority of them are in their professional opinion but it’s quite hard to disprove the supposed conditions they claim to have. There are websites dedicated to helping persons who wish to game the system do so. I rather object to having to pay for those people. Hopefully now they will be found out and encouraged into work.

Everyone on pip is genuinely disabled and what the government think is very different to the reality. They may think this person can sit at a computer so they should be working but aren't taking into account the amount of appointments and sickness days they will need and the adjustments that will need to be made and this will effect everyone in the workplace. The thing what people don't seem to understand when you have a chronic illness/disability some days you can be fine then a flare up or crisis happen and you then end up in hospital and can need weeks/months at a time that sickness will need to be covered and when this happens several times in a year it going to piss of the other workers who have to pick up the slack. I think absolutely it would be great to get more people into work but people need to understand what the reality of that will look like. I currently work part time but with hospital appointments, illness, hospital admissions, surgeries I don't think iv ever gone a month without having to take time off that impacts my colleagues

Perhaps if they funded the NHS and fixed the issues less people would be on pip?

Person A has a hip problem needs a replacement finds themselves unable to continue full time work NHS waiting list means it could be years but you have to eat right? So they go part time and apply to pip to bridge the gap the worsening condition means they have to quit so they then end up on UC and going through a disability assessment getting a LCWRA award and sit and wait for an operation to fix the issue operation day comes and its worse than they expected because it's been so long they also check the quality of the other hip and reality is it's just as bad because it'd been carrying the load for five years so your back on a waiting list for five years waiting for another hip operation being told to lose weight and move more but your in agony and it's hard

Now imagine what would have happened if you could have had the operation sooner? You would have time off work and return to work within a fairly short period of time

Person B has a mental health condition they find it crippling the go to the Dr's who say they need to get out more perhaps if they lost weight they might feel better and send them on their way they also apply for benefits but they have no evidence they are mentally unwell and end up with sanction after sanction eventually they return to the Dr's who after much hemming and hawing decide to try antidepressants telling them it's not a quick fix and that they still need to get out there eventually they find work and spend a long time on antidepressants the Dr's are unhappy with this and keep removing them saying they shouldn't be reliant on them all the while not even considering the reason behind the depression eventually they give them four sessions of therapy and find out they have being horribly abused and are struggling with suicidal thoughts unfortunately after four sessions you have to pay privately so they apply for benefits (pip) to cover the extra expenses while the Dr continues to sign for the pills so they don't die

Now imagine if they were given therapy first with the option of having it for longer if needed

I could go on I could tell you about my friend who tried and fought and died my other friend who committed suicide after fighting his demons alone but somehow I don't think that people care until it happens to them

Those with serious MH conditions that make it difficult to work probably won’t be affected

its those that have some mh issues that’s are perfectly treatable with medication or self help that will be targeted

i firmly agree with Wes that there are to many people being told they have mh problems when in fact it’s a complete lack of resilience and ability to deal with change. And in my opinion it’s got much worse over the past few years

Covid was an eye opener for me on MN. Lots saying my kids can’t cop mh is being affected rather than ok it’s difficult let’s get on with life

i have absolute no doubt there are people with serious mh issues that need support. But lots just need to get a grip and get on with it. We are building a generation of snowflakes

now I await my flaming. I won’t actually be reading any comments though so bash away

No bashing from me - I agree!

What jobs? RR and Labour have collapsed growth and actively led to recruitment freezes and redundancies. Whilst everyone was clapping like seals and shouting, smallest violin, tax the rich, private school, off you fuck etc. People were warning…scare off net contributors and there is less for everyone.

Business is not recruiting/active redundancies. Higher earners (net contributors) are changing behaviour. A mix of thresholds, reduction of allowances and possibly not worth pushing for the extra if they were fee paying or; they are leaving.

A direct impact of Labour and their budget means less for everyone as net contributors and business have said no more. The economy is shrinking. This means mass redundancy in the public sector and huge welfare cuts.

People didn’t want to hear it and here we are.