To wonder if all those gleeful about PIP cuts are going to welcome people with serious mental health conditions as colleagues and employees?

[Somethingthecatdraggedin7]

Given the amount of ableisism I see on MN I think the likelihood of people welcoming people with serious mental health conditions into their workplace is pretty low.
And yes, these people will very likely now be forced to try to work even though their condition makes it impossible. We are not just talking about some lazy twenty year old who expects to sit at home gaming due to his “anxiety” as many people seem to believe is the case. It will be people with significant impairments to social functioning.
Even if they get support to apply for jobs, and even if they then get the position (doubtful) how accommodating will colleagues or customers be if the person seems a bit odd, or gets adjustments workmates deem unfair?
This is going to be a total shit show.

It’s probably not going to happen. There will be the small percentage of people who can manage who will return to work.
The rest will either manage without the money/slip further into poverty. Or they will Return to the workplace and their health will deteriorate, end up on long term sick and either go back on benefits or die.

HR departments across the country will be working overtime devising tests for job candidates to take to make sure the company doesn’t end up employing someone who will be off sick for the majority of the time. (With full rights from day 1!)

The combination of policies is quite something. NI hits part time lower paid more, HR will look to protecting companies as you say and loss of welfare is a triple whammy.

There. Are. No. Jobs. My son is desperate for a job, we've been trying for a year, tried literally any job at all. Nothing.

I had a horrible experience some time ago. I have spinal cord damage and had three operations on my spine and my pelvis. I am on crutches and should have been on PIP at the time but was so overwhelmed with the benefits system i didn't understand what I could apply for or have any support to help me apply. I went into the review on my crutches with a single sheet of paper in my hand. The doctor put on the report that I walked in unaided carrying several items.

My benefits were stopped and I appealed but was turned down and I was too scared to go to tribunal. I was then put under pressure to go on a course which was difficult anyway on public transport because of my condition but if I didn't go they would sanction me then I was made to accept a job or face sanctions. I was told it was a permanent job but it was actually zero hours contract. The job made my condition even worse because I could not sit down or take proper rests and my GP ended up signing me off sick then I ended up back at hospital and now need another operation because the job was completely unsuitable and caused more damage. It was a total disaster and now I am even more dependent and had to be rehoused into adapted accomodation so am now costing the tax payer even more money. All because the DWP doctors were under pressure to find people like me fit for work.

I already get 4 points in one descriptor anyway but It doesn't stop me laying awake at night scared for the future. I didn't ask for what happened to me. I used to be healthy then one day my life changed forever and now I feel almost criminalised for not being able bodied, like it's my fault. It will be even worse now people who would have previously qualified for PIP can't get It. I know the system is unsustainable and needs reform but I am genuinely afraid of where this is heading because I know from bitter experience the wrong people will suffer 😔

OP, has it occurred to you that there are a fair number of 20 yos with anxiety who need to be supported and encouraged to work because they are missing out on life chances unnecessarily.

And there are others with depression and anxiety who will benefit from being in work, of having company and positive support during the day.

I work for a company that happily makes reasonable adjustments. We have multiple PIP claimants as colleagues. Not all employers are vile.

There are stacks of jobs on my area. Just about every business I speak to is struggling to recruit.

Thank you for this post.

As a wife of someone with a SMI who could not work for the reasons you stated, it's really validating to have someone come onto these threads who understands it and sticks up for us.

My husband simply can not work. I don't know if he will get the required PIP points though. He's recovering from a long inpatient stay which has resulted in trauma on top of his SMI.

The whole idea that he might have to fight for PIP and be pressured to look for work is causing him stress. The last thing people with SMI who are fighting just to stay alive a lot of the time needs is this fear. I hope the government can somehow protect the most vulnerable without making them jump through hoops.

This all seems really backwards to me, we cannot afford to fund people with MH issues to not be working their whole lives/for long periods of time. Rather than suddenly now trying to force all these people, many who have probably written themselves off as workers, back into work why don't we look at how we can prevent the same thing happening to the next generation?

Why aren't we pumping money into mental health services for kids/teens/adults and making sure they are mentally capable to work? Why aren't we looking at ways to develop resilience, assertiveness, being proactive, skills to cope with rejection in kids that are struggling at secondary school. Why aren't there clear routes into work and more support for kids that aren't academic and are not going to get good GCSE grades.

Why are we making kids sit all their GCSE's knowing they are going to fail them all. Why are we diverting these kids earlier before they learn they are complete failures. Getting them doing functional maths and English and offering a range of courses that are much more hands on. Much more support with getting a job for those finishing any kind of course. There is so much we could be doing to help people get into work that would be so much more helpful than punishing them or taking away from them - and it needs to start early.

But Labour have fucked us all over. No one is hiring because companies can't afford it with all the extra costs Labour have brought in. DH got no pay raise in his job of 25 years because of it. DS though got a pay rise after just 3 months of being in his (government paid) job. Absolutely ridiculous.

How do you ‘crack down’ on this?

Suicide and crime will go up. It won’t be pretty. Mark my words

The simple fact is there is not enough money in the system to fund all these long term benefits, and why should people who are already working hard and paying their taxes keep paying more and more to fund those people who could do a little bit to help themselves

That would make too much sense, wouldn't it?

The Government want a quick fix, but they don't want to fix the actual problem.

@Somethingthecatdraggedin7 , we already do not pay in to the system proportionately. Those with more wealth pay proportionately greatly more. It is right and proper that a civilised country helps to support its old and sick citizens but it is completely unacceptable that some of those who could work and contribute game the system to obtain a life on benefits especially one where those benefits provide more financially than others who go out to work are earning. It might have a positive impact on our illegal immigrant problem too if we aren’t seen as such a soft touch.
That it is a Labour Government who has had the honesty to address this issue is a surprise to me and I’m pretty certain an equally surprising outcome for any malingerers who voted for them.

No one is talking about where the vast majority of DWP expenditure is. It's not on disability benefits or unemployment benefits. It's on pensions and related benefits.

We’ve been talking about this in work this morning and one of my colleagues has a son with schizophrenia. She said she can’t wait for the phone call to say he’s taken other people in the workplace hostage because his voices have told him to. She’s worried about him having a decline in his mental health if he hears about the cuts so she’s tried to keep him away from the news as much as possible. It must be a terrible situation for them both to be in right now and I genuinely feel for everyone who this is going to affect. I think mental health illness is severely misunderstood by most people, it’s not just people having a bad day it’s much more serious but because it’s invisible people write it off.

That's a nice idea but the problem with 'the richest' is they are very mobile and at a certain threshold they will decide to move themselves, their businesses and their assets somewhere more welcoming. It's already happening. Even the MN homepage had a whole section on moving to Dubai recently. I'm seeing it among associates. No doubt people will slate them for being selfish etc but many of these people are entrepreneurs and business people, and if their businesses become economically unviable due to the tax hit there is zero reason for them to bother. Put it this way, would you go to work if your take home pay was negative? No, of course you wouldn't.

Tax policy has to take account of the fact all variables are changeable. It's isn't as simple as this is the tax take now, raise the rates by x% and the increase in tax take will be proportionate. In reality it may actually fall. As happened with stamp duty.

Isn’t the issue many employers though? I hire people with disabilities if they can do the job that’s all what matters, and we do reasonable adjustments. Surely the pressure needs to be on companies to fork into their pockets to help people stay in work? There are lots of options including flexible working and even the scheme for Access to Work which can even pay some of the costs! I don’t understand why no one is focusing on the employers in this and that most companies have absolutely no occupational health, don’t give any support so people feel they have no other option. People shouldn’t feel they have to leave work because an employer has made it impossible for them to stay. This creates an elitist society where the companies profit from getting rid of the ‘dead wood’ pushing the burden onto the tax payer. It’s really wrong.

I understand it’s not always possible to find even the most tolerant and open minded employer to meet the needs of someone with a severe disability, and there are always good grounds for people not being at all suitable for work, but the government needs to put pressure on employers - workers and disabled people are protected in the workplace and have rights, so they are being let down by the employers. It’s not right at all

My honest opinion (and I’m not some conspiracy theorist) is that the idea behind when these cuts start is that it’ll be a case of sink or swim. You step up and survive, or you wilt.

Swimming will be these people finding work or some sort of training or employment. Something that will sustain them and make them self-sufficient.

Sinking will be that they end their lives.

The government don’t lose either way. They either have a productive member of society paying into the pot, or they have a corpse who won’t cost them any money.

I genuinely think that the powers that be are fine with either outcome.

It's not just the disabled people, it's the carers who will be struggling into work on 3 hours sleep and then having to take time of work again because their child has 2-3 hospital appointments per week. Appointments that take 2-3 hours of you include time spent on the waiting room.

My son has had 25 operations, he's only 11 so that's just over 2 a year. Due to NHS cutbacks 1 of his consultants is no longer doing clinics at our local hospital so now we have to go to the hospital 90 minutes away to see him every couple of months or so.

Also not disability related but there are no nhs dentists in our area any more. So what was a 45 minute trip to the dentist and then back to work/school is now half a day off.

I think the main issue is going to be, rightly or wrongly, that there will be a lot of companies who actively avoid hiring people that have disabilities or mental health issues. In smaller teams sometimes it is just not possible to provide the type of cover or support needed without putting extra pressure on other staff.
Larger companies, while paying lip service as it looks good on their mission statement can be very much of the opinion that someone who may require time off, or extra help is not as good 'value' as someone who doesn't.

It worries me that before long after stopping peoples pip and trying to force people back in to work - Some of who will not be able, you will then get cries of how much more the unemployment in that group rises.

How long then will be until the ugly suggestion (that has already been floated before) that it would be acceptable to pay disabled employees less to make them seem more desirable to employers - pushing more of a feeling of worthlessness on to a group that deserve support

You’ve spectacularly missed the point I was making, we can all make nice moral statements and judgements but I’m asking HOW it’ll work in practice which no one ever has the answer to. Theory is all well and good but if we want to make a change then we actually need the goddamn revenue.

Given that in terms of global wealth distribution approximately 10% of the world's richest people own over 85% of the wealth, I'd actually say very damn rich.

Yes but last time I checked, Downing Street doesn’t have any power over global wealth distribution do they? What exactly are you proposing our government do to a billionaire in India to raise money for our welfare bill?

This is why I’m asking:

Who are the rich in this country?
How many of them are there?
What are they worth?
How do we tax them?

We can all hand-wring over the injustices in the world but in the meantime people are dying so excuse me if I’m more interested in practicalities, especially as the OP who I was replying to said the solution was “simples”.

If it’s so “simples”, how does it work? Just saying “tax the rich” in itself is meaningless.

No one is meaning your neighbour who is a consultant with their 4 bed house and Mercedes with a comfortable life.

Yes I’m fully aware of that but practically speaking, these are the only people the government has reach / power over so despite the lip service, it will be these people and not the billionaires who end up shouldering the bill.

We mean people who can spend millions of pounds on an item of jewellery, for instance.

Right so again, how many of them are domiciled in the UK? What exactly are they worth? How are we going to tax them? How much do we need from them year on year to plug the gaps in the NHS, education, social care, welfare etc? What’s to stop them just upping sticks and leaving the country?

But by all means, let's target 50 year old Debra who has been on antipsychotic medication for Schizophrenia since she was 20 which has given her a speech delay, living in her 1 bed flat and getting by with local family cooking her meals.

Don’t be disingenuous, I’m not saying we should target the “Debras” of this country. I’m asking how in practical terms we go about getting the money we need to help the “Debras” rather than just spouting meaningless sounds bites.

Yep. I find it difficult to even get volunteering work. I'm only on PIP currently because my DP earns too much. Been trying to find paid work for over a year, not even an interview. Finally managed to find a volunteer role so I at least have up to date experience but they seemed concerned about taking me on because of my disabilities.

In my large team we have a number of people with anxiety and depression ( enough to be hospitalised quite a bit), physical disabilities that mean they can’t do certain aspects of the job, and some people disabled from birth in supported employment. I’d say about a 1/4 of them come under this.

So, nothing new here. Nothing to see. The workplace has evolved a lot. It wouldn’t make and difference to me. I go in, do my job, cover more aspects that are physical that my colleagues can’t do, and they pick up more of the desk work. My manager deals with the extra aspects involved, it doesn’t really unreasonably affect me. These days people understand and are more accepting of being minorly put out to include someone.

There are lots of people who need assistance to live. However there are a lot of people taking the piss out of our system. I know a few. It’s got to stop.

I think you are confusing proportionally to the same.
The very wealthy have more than enough as is seen in their lifestyles. It is abhorrent that people will buy a super yacht or whatever whilst disabled people, the majority of whom are poor, are penalised.
The very fact that you use the term “malingers” on this thread says so much about you.