To wonder if all those gleeful about PIP cuts are going to welcome people with serious mental health conditions as colleagues and employees?

[Somethingthecatdraggedin7]

Given the amount of ableisism I see on MN I think the likelihood of people welcoming people with serious mental health conditions into their workplace is pretty low.
And yes, these people will very likely now be forced to try to work even though their condition makes it impossible. We are not just talking about some lazy twenty year old who expects to sit at home gaming due to his “anxiety” as many people seem to believe is the case. It will be people with significant impairments to social functioning.
Even if they get support to apply for jobs, and even if they then get the position (doubtful) how accommodating will colleagues or customers be if the person seems a bit odd, or gets adjustments workmates deem unfair?
This is going to be a total shit show.

You'll still qualify for the mobility element though won't you?

What a sensible post. There are complex reasons some people struggle into work (usually in a workplace which pays lip service to making 'accomodations' but does nothing of the sort & even if it does this causes much resentment amongst other staff). The reasons can be physical, mental or a combination.

An approach which provides real, tailoured, achieveable opportunities sounds great, coupled with being able to return to benefits if it proves not possible (so people are not scared to try). The Govt seem to be making noises about this. But MUCH bigger noises about 'deserving workers' vs 'the undeserving'.
£5BN of cuts from the most vulnerable. FIVE BILLION from the most vulnerable.

It might be pointless to you but it won’t be pointless to the people this will affect negatively.
So dismissive of you

A very sensible approach that would be likely to yield some good results and be a win-win in terms of cost savings to the public purse while also actually helping people out of MH problems and into work and a higher income.

Very unlikely to actually happen when the government can just wield a big stick more easily.

My seriously schizophrenic older brother has never worked, he recently had his pip stopped (as my older sister discovered) probably due to him not filling g out the forms. He doesn't want to appeal it even though my sister could easily get it reinstated for him. He will now likely struggle horribly as he is in no fit state to work, he lives in his own world and no one really understands him

@Slimbear

deemed by people who have little or no knowledge of how conditions affect people in real life.

I've been supporting my neighbour who has medical and mental health issues with her PIP review.
She received zero points.
I won't go into too much detail as it's her information not mine but four of the reasons cited were

• she bought her own walking stick and seat to sit in the shower, they were not 'prescribed'
• there is no evidence of abandoned journeys in the last 5 years, therefore she can plan and make journeys. But that's because she is housebound and hasn't been anywhere since lockdown
• there is no evidence of falls - well she lives alone so there wouldn't be any witnesses but I've seen the bruises.
• she can manage her money. She can't, she's been ripped off by 'builders ' who take money and don't turn up. Her daughter inlaw does her food shop. I've just sorted out all her bills because she was in serious arrears.

All information that was given to the assessor. And people still bang on about how easy it is to get PIP.

This!
Alongside they can get back to working or find a job AS LONG AS ITS NOT MY WORKPLACE so the inevitable sick leave / reasonable adjustments dont impact me .

There's so much ableism on these threads. Loads of your colleagues will be disabled but don't disclose it to you. I've been surprised at how often I've disclosed mental/physical disability in the workplace and colleagues have responded by sharing their own issues.

You can work with all sorts of serious MH and PH conditions. Loads of us do. Not all of us can. But all this bullshit about 'no one wants to employ them!' is just ableism.

And maybe anyone writing this stuff should think about how THEY could become an inclusive employer, or encourage their own employer to do so?

I don't think they will in most workplaces, no. But they need to change and its in everyone's interests for employers to do this.

I do also think these threads often miss than most mental health problems are episodic. Someone may have periods of life where they can't work but for most this won't be their whole working life, which the system currently supports. For most (not all) it will be therapeutic to do some work in some form, I know a few people who have effectively been allowed to be out of work for decades for anxiety/depression, ignoring the cost of this enabling them to stay at home I don't think this helps them. For both of these people I think it is more that they are unhappy with the options on offer: minimum wage work in a supermarket or a similar lifestyle without working.

Admittedly this may not apply to schizophrenia/bipolar disorder which can impact long term functioning, but I work in mental health and have had colleagues with these diagnoses and they've been fab.

Quite simply, the rich will not pay. Far too many options to protect wealth.

I work hard and have done for many years. During this time I have had periods of depression and anxiety and I am also a carer. When you say tax the rich I think you actually mean anyone but you. And most likely me. I earn well. I think I pay enough tax as it is and I want to fund my own decent retirement. The IFS data notes that sickness benefits in the UK are growing disproportionately in the Uk compared to elsewhere. People in the UK are not sicker than elsewhere in Europe. A number of people who can work are choosing not to work and I do not want to fund this. Getting a job will help your depression and anxiety. Sitting at home and doing little will make it worse.

Yes!

My daughter has Tourette’s (as well as Autism and FND) - you can imagine the length of the in queue of employers willing to give her a job.

But it’s ok, she’s never claimed PIP - the lady on the phone when she rang up to ask for the forms was so unbelievably vile to her that she burst into tears and has refused to try again.

But PIP is easy to claim right?

Oh so that's what the euthanasia bill was about? Jolly government this.

I wonder if some of the people would find their mental health improves if they have the routine of work. I appreciate that this isn’t a one size fits all approach but it may work for some and is at least worth a try 🤷‍♀️ Some people may be surprised and start feeling less anxious if they’ve got a bit more money and have a holiday to look forward to rather than sitting alone gaming all day, moaning that they’re skint.

But many people are able to contribute significantly despite various difficulties with adjustments and support

Except who wants an employee who maybe unwell on a regular basis, who has to attend hospital appointments on a regular basis, needs a nap in the middle of the day to get by,....and a whole host of stuff I haven't thought of because I don't have a good knowledge of all the possible debilitating conditions a person can suffer with. 'Reasonable adjustments' are sometimes possible - ramp to get in the office, disabled toilet, time off for appointments....but you are no good to an employer if you've not been taking your medication and are actively psychotic, are you?

With the incredible growth Keir Starmer promised all the gullible voters

Some of us did warn people what a labour government & Keir Starmer would be like but no one wanted to listen

I know a few people who have effectively been allowed to be out of work for decades for anxiety/depression, ignoring the cost of this enabling them to stay at home I don't think this helps them

so you have training in psychiatry/psychology/psychotherapy and appropriate clinical experience to be able to say, definitively, that these people you know would be better off working from a health perspective?

Some people had to leave the workforce because it made their MH worse. And those same people can and do have routines that is not paid employment.

Unfortunately some of those people who are gleeful about the cuts (not many but there are a few) may well end up needing them in the future as things can often go downhill health wise as you get older. It won’t be many but to some it will happen.

Took me 51 years to be diagnosed with hip dysplasia. That is fixed by a replacement but menopause has made the psoriatic arthritis I had for 20 years very active and is eroding my joints in places despite being on medication. I went from running 10k to being pretty much housebound and barely being able to get the toilet in the space of 3 years.

So easy to think it will never happen to you and that you have aches and pains but get on with things and don’t let the, stop you doing things - until they suddenly do.

Yes I agree. I'm classed as disabled and am employed, I have ASD, ADHD and also have a history of anxiety, depression and self harm. My employer is flexible and I work part time, I'm wfh today as I woke up and couldn't go in and all I had to do was message that I'd be wfh today and that was fine as I make the effort to go in when I can (I was in yesterday). There are lots of ND colleagues at my work and also with other disabilities too. Many employers are flexible when you are open and honest with them, work effectively and make the effort when you can, and are a generally good employee. I do hope that those who really can't work at all will be protected and keep PIP and other benefits, but I also think cuts are necessary for those with less severe disabilities.

Yes it’s very naive. If it were possible to get more out of the corporations we would do it, but they are very sophisticated at avoiding tax and if you tax them too much they pick up and go elsewhere. In general, there is a limit to how much you can tax people without starting to actually lose money and our tax burden is already huge.

A second point though is on the principle. Do we think it’s right that a quarter of the adult population is not self-supporting? At what point would it be too much? What if half the population relied on benefits?

It's depressing. I'm a mental health nurse, and I feel very worried in particular for people with an SMI diagnosis (severe mental illness). Many people with SMI can and do work and are well maintained on medication, but many simply cannot. Everyone has a different level of well, and some people's well is actually still quite poorly. For some people that might mean chronic negative symptoms like depression, chronic poor sleep, self-neglect, chronic voice hearing, etc. There are many people just getting through life as it is, without being forced into massive trigger points like work. Many of my patients just wouldn't be capable of work, and even if they were, no employer is going to hire someone who has known relapses, is highly responsive to stress, has delayed speech due to drugs they're taking, struggles to wake up for work, needs time off for mental health appointments, and so on. Many people with SMI will not score 4 points in one domain and can live independently or with family support, but that does not mean they can work. All this will do is push very vulnerable people (and many people with SMI are vulnerable) into poverty.

A lot of people on antipsychotics also struggle physically, particularly if they are on old school antipsychotics (such as Haloperidol, Clozapine, etc). I don't think people realise the burden of effects that can come with these drugs. The drugs alone can be disabling. They can cause a shuffled gait, issues with cognition/speech, excessive sleep, heart problems, muscular issues, issues with continence, and so on.

People who don't work in it or have personal experience have no fucking clue how disabling an SMI can be.

This isn't about helping people get into work, it's about saving money, which they're doing by attacking the most vulnerable people in society.

Also, as well as SMI, things like anorexia, PTSD, EUPD and etc can also be very disabling! People who think otherwise has led a very privileged life imo. People have no idea what it is to live with the effects of significant trauma.

It's all well and good slating young people with anxiety too- the government need to take a long hard look at why so many people in modern society find life incredibly hard. Also, accessing mental health services is incredibly difficult until you become really quite unwell or there are lots of risks. Most people get offered 6 sessions of CBT following a very long wait, and that's it.

But naive to think this will actually save the money they say it will.

For a start, lower welfare payments usually end up resulting in increased payments elsewhere. Usually healthcare. And secondly, every Tory government we’ve had in the last 14 years has cut out of work disability payments and PIP/DLA alongside reducing eligibility to them. The rates of claims are still going up. There’s no reason to think doing the same thing again will result in a different outcome.

Not to mention the fact that making people poorer is not a brilliant economic strategy.

Mental health problems, 'even' those such as depression & anxiety causes significant cognitive issues such as severe brain fog, speech issues, panic attacks (obviously physical too), lack of coherence, inability to complete mental tasks, poor memory, inability to plan or construct an argument...

All things which significantly impair a person's ability to carry out the terms of employment (at any level).

The government expect employers to pick up the slack while also gleefully pushing vulnerable people not capable of much into abject poverty. I do wonder if they'd rather we just dropped down dead.