To wonder if all those gleeful about PIP cuts are going to welcome people with serious mental health conditions as colleagues and employees?

[Somethingthecatdraggedin7]

Given the amount of ableisism I see on MN I think the likelihood of people welcoming people with serious mental health conditions into their workplace is pretty low.
And yes, these people will very likely now be forced to try to work even though their condition makes it impossible. We are not just talking about some lazy twenty year old who expects to sit at home gaming due to his “anxiety” as many people seem to believe is the case. It will be people with significant impairments to social functioning.
Even if they get support to apply for jobs, and even if they then get the position (doubtful) how accommodating will colleagues or customers be if the person seems a bit odd, or gets adjustments workmates deem unfair?
This is going to be a total shit show.

Do you think that pushing vulnerable people into destitution is the right way to go?
It is so easy to say when you are not in line of sight of such measures.
You are one accident away from being affected by this.

I don’t need an accident, I’m already quite significantly disabled.

What do YOU think is the way to go? How do we find an extra 5 billion a year as the workforce shrinks?

Yes, you keep saying. OCD and a seizure disorder. But you can work so everyone else with those conditions obviously can too. I think you have some internalised ableism going on.

Are you in work right now? Have you seen the job market at the moment? There are a few threads on here about it... about how hard it is to find work. AI turning people down within minutes of uploading a CV. Psychometric tests weeding out ND applicants. The big supermarkets want people who already have retail experience. Same with hospitality.

This thread is about people who have been out of the workforce for years, even decades. They have disabilities and will come with a load of accommodations. No references, no experience, no qualifications. On what planet do you think their application would be at the top of a short list for even for most menial of jobs?
Be honest.... would you employ them?

Yes, I would. If I was in your shoes I would be seriously thinking about what I could do, getting some volunteer work over the next few months, then use that as a basis to apply for part time or full time roles. I would attach a covering letter saying I had been out of work for disability for a number of years and would love the opportunity to work again. I would also take advantage of guaranteed interview schemes.

I have seen a few posts on local FB groups by people looking for work who have disabilities. One mum was looking for volunteer work for her son who has Downs Syndrome, another was a man with a physical disability. Both outlined their capabilities and the sort of thing they were looking for and received a lot of responses.

The mistake you’re making is you’ve been out of the world of work for so long now, you’re assuming that whatever soulless big corporations are doing is what EVERY employer is doing. Most employers aren’t McDonalds or ASDA, they don’t have psychometric or personality tests, they don’t have 1000 applications per job. But you cling onto this as it justifies you in not attempting it.

You’re an articulate, well written lady who seems quite stable from your daily responses, none of which indicate instability. I think you should review your situation as perhaps you’re not in the position you were years ago, and in fact could work now, if you planned it carefully.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/dwp-disability-benefit-cuts-leave-10048652?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

There are loads of cases like this. She gets more money than I earn for anxiety and fibromyalgia, which according to her leaves her bedridden in pain or trapped inside due to panic attacks, yet has an 18 month old son (mine is 2 and I can confirm lying in bed for hours simply isn’t an option with a lively toddler). She hasn’t worked for 7 years and was on benefits when she had him.

Can anyone explain this to me? I’m not being snide, but it’s the elephant in the room.

Not even close to how it works in Canada. Not even close.

There will be nobody left to tax. Anyone earning over 150k already pays 50% tax and loses their non taxable income so pays more than that. How much do you expect these people to pay? If you are talking about corporations that seemingly dodge tax like Amazon then yes I agree. But this ‘just tax the rich’ isn’t really realistic.

You’re an articulate, well written lady who seems quite stable from your daily responses, none of which indicate instability. I think you should review your situation as perhaps you’re not in the position you were years ago, and in fact could work now, if you planned it carefully

I was today referred to the home treatment team. Being articulate online means nothing. I used to post from my room when on section.

But your posts are very lucid, coherent and consistent.

I know MH can present differently but the underlying symptom is that people in major crisis do not think lucidly, consistently and in a balanced way.

I’ve been around a lot of people with very severe MH issues and if they were up to using the internet at all, their posts would’ve been quite rambling, odd or very anxious. If they had managed a calm and rational post they wouldn’t have been able to keep it up every day and for years on end.

That is my awful combo of PD and ND issues. I can be articulate but be slicing my arms up at the same time. It is a curse to be so self aware but lack control too. It is ok... I will drop off here soon enough as my anti-psychotics will get increased and sedate me more. That is what usually happens.
I wont try and explain it to you, because you will just tell me to bugger off and apply to Tesco anyway (by the way, I looked and they only have driving jobs where I live).

Anyway, you never replied.. would you employ someone like me?

Christ, no, I am done. Fed up with various people making out anyone with MH issues is swinging the lead, or if they post on MN... must be well enough to work.
Come live in my head. I dare you.
I am done. Seriously.

An income of only £15,500 a year puts you in the global top 10%. Somebody claiming PIP and UC, rent, etc, would be on at least twice that (£30k = top 3.2%)

Can you see the problem with these inane slogans that keep getting trotted out?

https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=15500&countryCode=GBR&numAdults=1&numChildren=0

I'd be in the top 1% with post tax earnings of £70k. How do you expect me to support 1 in 4 of the population on PIP?

But being in the global top 10 richest is meaningless for people living locally as they can’t pop over to a cheaper country and pick up their groceries, they can’t buy their electricity and get it shipped in from abroad so they have to meet local costs out of income. Generally the poorer you are the harder it it to live cheaply. I’m fairly comfortable and I’ve always picked up kids winter coats, bigger clothing etc in sales and kept it to one side for when they need. If you are living day to day you have to buy the item when you need it and are dictated by current cost. Likewise I have a car so I can drive to a cheaper supermarket and shop but people without transport have to either get a taxi or shop st more expensive local shops if they don’t live in an area with good affordable public transport.

I responded upthread.

@ThisOldThang

Somebody claiming PIP and UC, rent, etc, would be on at least twice that (£30k = top 3.2%)

That is not true. Where are you getting those figures from?

At one stage I was unwell enough to be getting what was income related ESA (now UC) and PIP, as well as housing benefit. It was nowhere near that amount, and I wasn't even on the lowest level. I've done a quick check of what the amounts would be translated into today's benefits and it comes to about £16,500. I suppose in an area where rents are higher it could be higher, but that is a problem with housing costs and benefits paying landlord's mortgages, not extra money in the claimants pocket.

What has surprised me in doing this calculation is that UC pays quite a bit more than the previous ESA system. (PIP and HB, in contrast, seem to have only risen with inflation.) Why did the Tories bang on about cuttting benefits but then bring in a higher paying system? My only theory is that they thought so many people were faking/exaggerating that the numbers would drop significantly (they did mention "the most severely disabled" being better supported). Unfortunately their awful, inaccurate assessments have cost £££ in appeals - I don't suppose Labour are planning to save some money by getting the assessments right first time?

Hmmmm.

She's got a lot of invisible conditions that are diagnosed purely based upon what you tell your doctor.

She uses her kid's buggy as a 'walker'. A cynic might suggest that this assertion provides a ready made excuse if she's seen pushing her kid around town or is investigated by DWP.

She states that her mental health prevents her leaving the house 'up to' four days per week. The use of 'up to' is meaningless because it covers her being unwell for anything between zero and four days each week... Again, a cynic might view this as a ready made excuse if she's seen out and about every day of the week.

I wonder if the taxpayer will be paying for a daily taxi to ferry her child to school because of the unpredictable mental health issues that prevent her leaving the house.

@JobhuntingDespair

I'm London/South East rent could easily be £20k + PIP of £10k + UC.

Either way, claiming that the 'global top 10%' need to pay is ludicrous when the majority of UK benefits recipients are firmly in the global top 10%.

@ThisOldThang

I agree the cost of housing in an issue, but then that's an issue for working people too, and benefits in terms of in-work top-ups because housing in unaffordable and completely out of whack with incomes.
[ETA: your housing calculation is accurate only for the LHA of the most expensive London borough (I'd been comparing it to the fairly expensive borough I used to live in.) However this will not be the majority of claimants.]

10k PIP is £192 a week! This must only be for the most severely disabled at all the higher rates. My (equivalent in today's) amount would be about £70. And I was really fucked up/hospitalised for MH when given that (on appeal). 10k is not what someone would get with an anxiety/depression type diagnosis - it will be for severe physical disability, needed to pay for equipment and care to meet basic needs. Paying someone else's wages, basically.

[ETA: your original assertion that a claimant on UC and PIP would be on "at least" 30k is also wrong. 30k appears to be about the maximum.]

It's an interesting one, but starts to feel a bit Nazi when I think of the person I know who has thousands spent on them every week (entitled to 24/7 care via LA, incredibly expensive medication, etc). Not trying to invoke Godwin's law, just where is the line?

I think the system will need to be completely redesigned to exclude invisible conditions, such as mental health, back pain, etc.

Those people will just have to survive on UC.

Please remember 'invisible' conditions covers very real physical illnesses. People with severe slipped discs or rheumatoid arthritis or multiple sclerosis have visible injury it just needs an MRI machine to see it rather than a human eye.

Exactly. Those people would be able to claim because their conditions are visible.

I have an interest in engaging with the figures.
This is what Wikipedia has to say about benefit fraud. Do you have a better resource (genuine question)? I've seen variations on these figures but everyone I've read seems broadly in agreement that tax shortfall is a much bigger issue than benefit overpayment.

I'm happy to believe that some individuals are exploiting the benefit system - of course there will be some; there are dishonest people in every strata of society. But I'm concerned about the focus on it, as I feel it's a distraction from much bigger, more urgent issues.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_fraud_in_the_United_Kingdom

How is it fair that someone who is more disabled by their mental health (for example) should receive less than someone with a physical disability they could work round? (Talking UC here, not PIP to pay for equipment etc. Although now UC will be linked to PIP entitlement.)

I have no skin in the game any more, but I know that when my MH was too bad to work I was more impacted than a friend of mine who's a wheelchair user (and doesn't work).

It's interesting that society views using a wheelchair almost as the archetypal disability, yet other conditions that are not obvious at first glance can be far more disabling in terms of work. People with physical disabilities who could work are in for a rude awakeing.

He would have to be assessed as lacking capacity or willingly allow this to happen.

Unfortunately, some people understand the stress of the benefits system and choose not to engage even though they will suffer as a result.

Bad decisions are still valid decisions if the person understands some basic consequences.

@JobhuntingDespair

If unemployed people are expected to live on UC, I honestly don't understand the logic of paying a £10k bonus to unemployed people with anxiety, depression, etc.

What's it for? Why do they need UC+ as opposed to just UC?