To be gleeful that most of us were right

[Wranglestar]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/adding-vat-to-private-school-fees-has-had-no-obvious-impact-on-state-sector-applications-390546/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2ATdaVlNkJsbtC-KizuW4Fw41obnpvezxnFv4IAFwzJPHXmU90Awr5eqAaem9tMIsn9I0vHSC4jrdYONIA#0rd9makyd4264nstc4us9j77yk5kaoswtLondon Economic

And that private schools has had no impact on state school places. The rich have simply - paid more. Excellent news!

Not quite right. Private education 'for profit' is banned in Finland.

I think banning private education is pretty well impossible in practical terms. Would that mean no private tuition? No home-schooling? Illegal to get little Johnny some help with his maths, with which he's struggling? Or just ban private schools? What is a school? Would any organisation offering classes be a school? So Kumon would have to close?

Don't go using facts now! 😉

Yep, sorry, noone can learn and instrument now. Oh, and that person teaching you gymnastics/swimming/karate... sorry! Banned!!!

I know, those pesky facts, they are just sooo inconvenient 😂
Why let the common sense and logic get in the way of a good rant!

My DB did just that. He is fortunate that he has just 1 year left of 1 child in primary. If both had been there they woukd have been pulled out as couldn’t afford the extra vat increase as it hadn’t been budgeted for when they started school.
My DD primary school has taken in 5 children as a result of the increase in different years.
I think vat should be paid but I do think more warning should have been given as not everyone is super rich to just afford another £300 a month per child for education even if they are on well above wages. It’s relative prioritising education over other luxuries.
we were never in that situation but wow £300 a month extra after tax that is a lot!

We worked out that moving house would probably cost us more than Private school (unless we downsized), plus we like where we live and didn't want the hassle

Maybe it would only be illegal to teach subjects on the national curriculum privately. So extra stuff (music, sports, basket weaving, a third language...) would be ok, but maths would be a no-no

I say this as someone who was sent to boarding school at the age of 8 and is living with the usual fallout of such inhumanity. I sent my own children to state schools where they all did fine. I'm also a proud socialist. But even I can't see any feasible way of stopping (even if you wanted to) parents from spending their hard-earned (or even hard-inherited) cash on trying to buy privilege improve their own children's futures in whatever way they think best.

It's not fair, but then life rarely is. So let's tax the buggers 😊

Music is in the national curriculum...

You'd be banning all language tutors, all drama and theatre clubs (after all, drama is on the NC), all sorts of clubs really.

Is nobody being able to privately enter exams?

Thing is, when people write things like:

But even I can't see any feasible way of stopping (even if you wanted to) parents from spending their hard-earned (or even hard-inherited) cash on trying to buy privilege improve their own children's futures in whatever way they think best.

And I am spending a small fortune every month on tutors trying to ensure that my severely SEN child manages to pass Maths and so not cost the country however much it would be for her to resit Maths for the next number of years, it doesn't really feel much like a privilege. Is my child privileged to be disabled? Is my child privileged that she's never the priority when it comes to handing out the SEN support smarties?

And when people make me feel like I am doing something wrong by trying to level the playing field a bit for her (and putting a bit into the bank account of the lovely single mother who tutors her) then I end up feeling like I don't really give a fuck anymore about equality or what others do or don't have and I will just do every single thing I can to give my child a leg up in every way I possibly can. I will stop thinking maybe I should pay for things myself because another child may not have that option, and I will become the squeaky wheel with the SEN department until I get all the resources I can.

can you provide that please?

In your "ban private education or tax the fuck out of it" proposal. You'd have to do the same for universities. Shall we ban them? Or shall we tax them??

After all, they're just fee paying schools.

The impact of ever there is one is was never going to be instant it’ll be long term as in the next group of pre school kids who haven’t entered education yet

excellent @frillygillymilly this is the perfect outcome. Less children at elite schools and more equality. Well done Labour!

I think you'll find that there's going to be more inequality.

The rich aren't going to stop sending their kids, they can already afford £40-60k on each of their children. They can afford the hike in fees.
It's like you don't understand just how wealthy some people are. There's families with 3 kids in secondary at a cost of £50k EACH.

The gap will just widen...

People get so muddled by their arguments. What is it? Is it the rich will just afford it anyway? Or is it state schools will be flooded with kids whose parents now can’t afford it?!

It will be the very wealthy will just crack on.

The people who were on bursaries (that are no longer being offered), those "just about" affording it and those SEN pupils are the ones that will enter the state system.

My sister is a primary teacher and already hads kids come from independent specialist SEN schools to her school this term, the state primary CANNOT COPE . Her "worst" child is profoundly autistic and non verbal. The specialist provision is gone. He's in mainstream education now and struggling already.

Do genuinely think these children are better off in the state sector? Do you genuinely think the government will magic up funding and training and specialist support teachers?

(Spoiler: they won't)

I stand firm in my assertion that this will end up in a wider division of opportunity.

If you think a child with severe educational needs being forced into an underfunded, ill equipped and understaffed mainstream school is "more equality", which is already happening as a direct consequence of these measures, and something to cheer about... Then you must be absolutely bonkers.

@Wranglestar do you want equality or equity?
Equality - giving everyone same regardless of need
Equity - giving people different things based on need, with the aim of acheiving a broadly equal outcome (within what is possible for them)

Equality, in disability circles at least, is often regarded as an outdated regressive concept, based on everyone having the same needs, which is obviously untrue.
'Let's give everyone a wheelchair' 'But I'm blind, I don't need a wheelchair, I need books in Braile' 'Nope, we treat everyone equal, everyone gets a wheelchair"

You're absolutely right, and I apologise for not making the case for SEN children. State SEN provision is woeful and should be improved - and until it is (if it ever is) of course parents will seek out any way of providing for their children's needs. I think that if you have an SEN child you should be exempt for any VAT charged on their educational fees

I have a close relative with Down Syndrome, whose state education was woeful, which makes my failure to make the case even more unforgiveable

I wasn't suggesting, however, that I think private schools should be abolished. Firstly, I don't think it's possible to ban them and, secondly, I don't believe they should be banned.

Universities aren't just fee-paying schools. They're institutes of higher education, teaching undergraduates, post graduates and carrying out research (for many of them the research they do is much more important than their teaching function). So they're entirely outwith the school system; you wouldn't have to treat them as if they were schools

It’s not the rich that will miss out. Many of our families have no foreign holidays or nice cars because they prioritise education. They are not wealthy, but are prepared to make sacrifices for a good education for
thwir children. If anything the gap will widen because to the true rich, 20% means nothing

I realise it’s not the point of your OP, but since you asked, here are just a few of the 100s of research papers from the UK and US

https://www.aecf.org/blog/child-well-being-in-single-parent-families

https://opfs.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/OPFS-briefing-on-single-parents-lived-experience-july2020_edited.pdf

https://srcd.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cdev.13342

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2019/november/single-mums-attainment.html

Yes absolutely, the super rich can afford anything thrown at them, it the parents working two jobs and extra hours to put their child through private school that will suffer, it's made private schools even more elite than ever before.

I think you’re finding it hard because there’s clearly both. Some can easily afford it, some will be disrupted including those who struggled to provide a school for SEN.

Private will be more elite, and if hardly anything is raised and state to private divide increases what’s the point?

Why not, it's education. You have to be pretty clear what constitutes teaching/education if you're going to say it should be taxed or banned or whatever.

Well, you'd have a shock. There's a huge amount of SEN in a lot of these schools, even "normal" schools, if they could be exempt from the VAT, then more families will push (and pay) for the diagnoses. They already did this for access arrangements.

That would mean Less money coming out in taxes and the most wealthy are getting a nice "discount" ...so that's pointless...