To ask what really combats misogyny? What can I do?

[seriouslysara]

Feeling miserable and angry after recent news stories, a sentence that's always true probably but right now I mean the vile cowardly man who took the lives of three loved and innocent women and the popularity of that awful content creator.

What can people do to make a difference and reduce violent misogyny? What actually helps? Are there examples of things in other countries that work or make it worse?

Here's everything I can think of:

1. Donate to refuges and campaigners
2. Raise these issues with our children and check what they're accessing online
3. Be a listening ear to friends in the hope they'd tell you if they were at risk
4. Campaign for better policing (new or different laws?)
5. Help spread useful resources and accurate info
6. Call out misogyny when I see it and when it's safe to
7. Try to support women owned businesses so more women have capital
8. Support organizations that give young people have opportunities so they're not radicalized?
9. Book self defense classes for our girls and their friends?

I want to direct my anger somewhere to something positive. A law to campaign to change? A cause to raise money for? An action of support or resistance? A career change to help people?

Genuine question. What can I do? What can we do?

I don't think it's as simple as saying it's a problem for men to solve. That's wishful thinking. What we need to do is create a society where toxic views are unacceptable. And that's not a cancel-culture woke interpretation of what's "toxic" it's to create a uniform standard of what is acceptable that everyone can get on board with.

First of all, we need to accept that clamping down on misogyny means a change to our attitudes to religious and racial discrimination. Currently, discrimination against women is third in the pecking order of how seriously the discrimination is taken. The current PC/woke hierarchy is racism is most serious (excluding white people), religious discrimination second (excluding Christianity), homophobia third, misogyny fourth, transphobia fifth (although that is grappling to change position with misogyny), discrimination against physically disabled people sixth, ageism (when against elderly people) seventh and discrimination against people with mental disabilities eighth.

There is only so much "progressive goodwill" to go around and currently most of society's efforts are spent on tackling racism and religious discrimination. Discrimination against women is a distant fourth, I guess because of its unusual position in the hierarchy in that most of the "victims" of other discrimination make up a small proportion of society, women make up half. If we want more progress to be made on womens' rights, we need to take the focus of the "progressive goodwill" away from racism, religion and homophobia, and put ourselves first.

If we could do that we would be in a very dominant position given the strength in numbers to force changes through.

I realise this doesn't sound very nice and I'm not suggesting it could happen, let alone it should, but no progress will be made until womens' rights are seen as more important than religious rights for example.

Therein lies the issue, we don't equip and back each other to call it out at every chance.
in the case of the Hunt murders, Carol Hunt thought it kind to open the door to her daughter's abuser. We've got to stop being kind.
Discussions always concentrate on women and girls, but we've got to include men and boys. There are issues amongst lower class white boys that are being ignored and so they are ripe for the picking by extremist groups. During Covid, the potential of the new age of death was very much being discussed. It was considerably higher than the age that most lower WC white men In Glasgow and Blackpool live to and that's a direct link to the poverty faced by them. They feel no-one is listening. Hate speech needs to include sex, so the extreme views of the Tate brothers etc aren't given platforms. Like it or not, people coming into the country who see women as property and are used to child marriages, also needs investment in education. We have a way of life and religion shouldn't be able to ignore our laws. Be that over voting and working outside the home, or abortion. We are slowly weeding out the bad apples in our police, that needs to continue.

I'm trying to raise my boy to understand the problem. It's hard to do without slagging off his misogynistic father (my ex).

It's depressing how many opportunities for discussion there are in media tv song lyrics etc etc etc etc etc.

I also lead by example. I left a misogynist. Told my kids as adults they will always have a home with me and will always be able to leave. I also stress how it's bad for men too- misogynistic men miss out on so much in life and often end up alone. Perfect example being my ex having women leave him. He gets a cushy couple of years treating a woman like shit then he's left alone. My son has said he wants to live with his kids when an adult- I've explained that will be very easy to achieve if he takes equal part in house and childcare and treats his partner well. Time will tell if I've done enough

I agree that in this case, 'No, they don't, Jack is a total dickhead, everyone hates him' would have been a much better response.

Well, spit it out then!

I don't think anyone thinks it's the solution to the whole problem, but I still think it would be impactful.

It's been a bit of a hot topic in our home this week due to a particularly unpleasant man on DH's team at work. The rest of the team are "good guys". But I imagine if you were to look through unpleasant man's phone, he'd be in all sorts of horrible WhatsApp groups with equally awful men, watching all sorts of shite online, consuming porn that degrades women etc. So yes, the men he chooses to socialise with outside work may share his views, but if the "good guys" he works with would call out his vile jokes and inappropriate behaviour, he would at least have his views challenged in one circle.

The thing is though, if you boil it right down, it's about biological differences between the two sex classes.

The social conditioning of women and girls to smile, fawn and appease men (#bekind) is largely born out of the threat of male violence. It's a culture that is then upheld by conditioned women and girls, but ultimately it is behaviour that is rooted in the threat of male violence.

Expecting women and girls to ever be able, as a group, to stop being kind to men and to resist social conditioning, seems unrealistic to me unless we can actually do something about the root cause. And I don't know the answer to that. How do we remove the biological advantages that men have over women? Because we sure as shit aren't going to see a time where all men just...stop being violent.

The mother son dynamic is wild though. Sensible smart intelligent feminist women go absolutely starry eyed about their own sons. It’s weird.

I really don't think we can do anything about the root cause. Men will always seek to use their physical advantages to get what they want.

I really believe all we can do is raise our own kids to be better. Social conditioning can be overcome. Biological differences can't, obviously.

I'm really focused on telling my girls to listen to their instincts, to be direct in their speech, to never do anything that they don't want to, I make sure they see me sticking up for myself as much as possible, I insist they don't go along with their brothers desires just for an easy life, as they get older I'll be on at them constantly about what is acceptable behavior in a partner, if I ever feel my partner disrespects me I point it out etc etc.

Likewise with my boys I always make sure he gives space to others when they need it, I encourage him to look at people's body language when they are talking, I call him up on selfishness and self centeredness all the time, I talk constantly about consent and respect.

I think we can only work with our kids before they grow up to become adults who perpetuate all the negative stereotypes.

I can only try my hardest to ensure my boy doesn't grow up to be an asshole or a predator, and that my girls don't grow up to desire or appease an asshole, and know how to avoid an out and out predator.

Fingers crossed 🤞

Women can start by not becoming the default parent (beyond the immediate post-birth phase) and not giving up their jobs/going part time. Those that work need to insist on an equal split of parenting/domestic responsibilities.

Men can cook. Don’t enable them not to. See also cleaning, looking after sick children etc.
Caring for your own children is never babysitting.
Women’s careers, pensions and hobbies matter.

I absolutely agree that men should do their fair share.
However, what about those women that want to be a SAHM mum for a while, or want to work part time so they can focus on their kids? I don't think we should blame these women for misogyny. I had an overwhelmingly strong maternal instinct and very much wanted to look after the children before they went to school. Some women can't wait to get back to full time and that's also fine. I did go back to work briefly when my first child turned one but I was miserable. When I had my second I stayed at home until he started school. DH was happy whether I stayed at home or went to work. He could see it was important for me to stay at home for a while so he supported it and we were fortunate that we could afford it.
Although we may argue for complete equality, there's no escaping the facts that some women do very much want to look after their young children and I don't think that's a bad thing. If some men want to do the same and it works for their family that's equally good. My dad was a SAHD which was very unusual for the 70s and 80s.

This is on my Facebook memories today.

www.facebook.com/share/p/15vQvpHFdD/?mibextid=wwXIfr

The majority of women who post on here about it are SAHM because “their pay wouldn’t cover the cost of childcare”. Nothing about desire to be at home and to be a part of the continuing gender pay gap. Most haven’t even thought about their pension or progression. It’s just that their jobs aren’t seen as important. And every time that happens, it ripples across society.

It also reinforces the “male as provider” stereotype.

My dad worked full time but wanted to do the bulk of childcare so that my more career-driven mother could climb her ladder. Hence I chose a man that, despite a very traditional upbringing, wasn’t interested in gender stereotypes. And that’s what gets role modelled to DD. Genuinely. She sees us both working hard and can come to either of us for anything. (I do buy her period pants but that’s just because I already had an account with that particular website.) I hope it means she won’t fall into the trap of being denied opportunities because she is female and expected to be the main caregiver.

Raise your children better - both your sons and your daughters - to believe that male and female have an equal place in the world.

I see it all too often, female friends being die hard feminists, male friends claiming to champion women's rights, and it's genuine for a while, until they have children. Then suddenly it's "what a big strong boy/pretty little girl". They dress their sons in blue with dinosaurs and vehicles, but their daughters in pink with flowers and butterflies. They wrestle with their sons and throw them upside down in the air, but they hold their daughter's hands in case they fall. Beyond a certain (young) age they tell their sons not to cry, to tough it out, but they'll hug their daughters when they cry for the rest of their lives. As they grow older and chores are allocated, the sons will help dad fix the car or do diy, and the daughters will clean and cook dinner with mum. The boys will be labelled as aggressive or tough, the girls bossy or bitchy. The boys will be given allowances to get away with poor behaviour, "boys will be boys". Into adulthood, these sons will be praised for spending time with their own children, and the daughters will be criticised if they don't spend enough time with the children. The cycle perpetuates. The female will be inferior.

Yes, I absolutely agree with all you say (100%!) and your home setup seems great. However, I know quite a few SAHMs and they've all done it because they wanted to. It's not a permanent thing, it's taking a few years off to focus on the kids because they have that urge to do so. It was not related to childcare costs or pressure from partners. They wanted to.
Everything you say is true but we also can't deny the women that do it through pure choice. They may seem an inconvenient truth but they exist. Such as my friend who gave up a high paying career because she wanted to throw herself into motherhood. She's still a SAHM mum now, even though her children are teenagers. She prefers it.
I fully understand that I was portraying the "female as caregiver image" to my kids when they were young (not now, I'm working). They probably won't actually remember me being a SAHM as they were toddlers. I also think kids see the world around them, not only their parents. My MIL was an Indian matriarch, she raised six children but never had a job. Gender roles were very strictly adhered to in their traditional Hindu household. However she had four daughters and every single one chose to reject the SAHM model their mum had shown them. They're all high flyers - one's a consultant, one's a lawyer. I think most of us reject the bits of our childhood we didn't like and keep the bits we did, when raising our own children. I certainly have done.

"Men will always view women in a sexual way and have a desire to overpower them."

This is such a dismal view.

Yes, most men view women in a sexual way and always will, but there is no inbuilt desire to overpower them - that's socially constructed, and that's what needs to be changed through better parenting, better education, better societal behaviour.

Ha. I have more tools than DH, do all the DIY and car maintenance and DD had a screwdriver in her hand “helping” from about 2 and a half. :)

The Evening Standard spearheaded a campaign last year on this issue, boosting funding and participation of other organisations to tackle it in schools. The aim is to kick start and get the government to take up a model approach which has proved successful, extend it and make it nationwide.

The series of reports it ran on the actual behaviour and what girls experience in schools were detailed and shocking.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/show-respect-evening-standard-campaign-violence-against-women-girls-misogyny-b1162226.html

The Metro has also had a campaign recently, highlight the issue in a series of articles.

It's not just boys, though. Most of the worst misogyny I've witnessed/ experienced has, hands down, come from other women. We need to be the change we want to see...

I hate to say more but it would start with not reproducing with most men or giving birth to many boys. I don’t see many mothers liking that. I think we have a bad batch (mostly) when you look at the numbers looking at child SA, the numbers willing to rape a woman if they can get away with it, the numbers raping turkeys before thanksgiving (wish I was joking).

Makes you wonder if it's safer to be single today.

I think this every time I see a well-intentioned Guardian piece by a Good Man about Positive Masculinity. None of the men responsible for toxic masculinity are reading it or have any interest in developing any sort of consciousness on that front.

I remember once venting to a male friend about 10 years ago about this... he was like, all the misogynists you hate are the same guys who bullied me in school for not being sporty etc. We'd both successfully organised our adult lives so we never had to deal with them any more.

@Fargo79 · Today 09:20

'@Cattreesea · Today 09:07
Zero tolerance for men's bullshit.
You see so many women on this forum who sound like great human beings but are putting up with lazy, selfish, abusive, porn sick men.
We need to educate and support girls better when it comes to relationships and sex.
It's not as simple as that. The whole of society would need to change radically to make it that easy to just walk away in every circumstance. The housing system, the NHS, "big pharma", welfare, the justice system, cultural norms, and about 100 other things. The women who stay aren't just pushovers who are happy to tolerate "men's bullshit".
Imagine a woman who is in a relationship, everything is OK. She has a baby and ends up experiencing crippling PND. She can barely function at home, let alone go back to work. At the same time, her partner has become abusive (it is not uncommon for abuse to begin around the time a woman becomes pregnant or gives birth). How does she leave? Where does she go and how does she support herself and a baby, both financially and physically? It's all very well saying women should leave, and encouraging them to LTB on every other MN thread, but it's not practical because the framework for them to safely leave a relationship and live independently is just not there.'

I left an abusive home and moved to the UK. I did not know a single person and did not initially have a job. I live in a hostel for quite some time.

I would always encourage a woman to leave an abusive partner even if it is going to be a struggle initially.

I don't necessarily agree but I do think this is a very overlooked angle - how to reframe straight male sexuality. No one actually talks about it properly! It's seen as this uncontrollable animalistic urge which is either a gold standard for masculinity or disgusting evidence of men's depravity. But nothing in between.

When I was growing up, I felt like I could read about the full spectrum of female sexuality in relatively mainstream ways. Women sang pop songs and wrote in newspapers and talked on TV about wanting to be submissive, wanting to be dominant, pleasuring themselves, pleasuring men, owning fantasies, masturbating. Gay men and lesbians did the same. It was really, really crucial for me in terms of realising I didn't have to fit any stereotype of female desire and could explore mine on my own terms.

I have never, ever seen straight men discuss their sexuality with the same kind of curiosity, complexity or nuance.

Yet in my actual sex life I've found that most men don't adhere to the stereotype of it, in fact most are privately disconcerted by it but don't feel able to talk about what they do want.

The only way I see a change is by raising our children differently. Setting them up from birth, boys and girls, with societal norms that actually reflect equality among men and women. It would be a completely different world but I don't know how to actually make that happen.