Worried about DD who is NC

[SMEHJmammy]

Afternoon all,
I have 5 DC, ages 18-26, my middle child is my 22 year old DD. DD and I have been no contact for almost 5 years (since she left for uni). The context of this is my other 4 children all have chronic health conditions/disabilities, DD was our only "healthy" child and as such she feels she was neglected. I feel awful about her feeling this way and miss her very much, she was never intentionally neglected but with 4 children with complicated needs she was the "easy" child. My ex husband and I definitely weren't the best parents to her, we missed parents evening, sports games etc. This was never because of a lack of love but rather being overstretched by the needs of our other children. Since the day DD left for uni, I haven't heard from her. She talks to her dad but also hasn't seen him in that time (he does insist on sending her money though) and she still talks to her siblings. She struggled with her mental health somewhat as a teen but we did go out of our way to provide her with as much support as we could, especially as some awful things external to family life happened. I was also told recently that she received a formal ADHD diagnosis, but this was never something anyone was concerned about when she was a child.
Anyway, DD has always been a very smart, responsible girl, she was head girl, straight As, she went to St Andrews and I know she graduated in the summer with a first class honours, and is now in London doing her masters.

Recently my eldest DS went to visit her, and he has come back feeling quite concerned, he said that she is drinking a lot, several week days after uni and on the weekends (out well into the early hours), she smokes weed (he said not like a "stoner" but socially), vapes, has used cocaine, seems to be just dating random men all the time. He also said she seems to be surviving on very little sleep, energy drinks and not enough food (she was anorexic as a teen).
I miss DD all the time, but I'm also feeling incredibly worried. I have tried to contact her to no avail, my ex husband says if he mentions anything about this to her she stops contacting him, and sends any money he has sent straight back. My DS doesn't know how to approach this and honestly neither do I.
So please mumsnet, what do I do?
AIBU to feel totally lost at dealing with this?

Agreed InterIgnis. OP’s daughter is free to forgive in time or not. Just because I have compassion for OP does not mean that I can’t also have compassion for her daughter. They are all suffering. But I think that as a mum, I would be apologising for not being there in her childhood and making sure I told her how much I love her and am there for her now if she needs me.
I remember hearing a mum of a large family once say that you help the child that needs you most at any given time. Sadly, OP’s daughter had four high needs siblings so her undiagnosed needs were unmet.
At 22 she is an adult but a very young adult and she may benefit greatly from a better relationship with her family. If her brother has accurately assessed the situation then she needs specialist support and is unlikely to get it from friends. Her family are likely to be key to her recovery.
I wish this family all the best. I hope they can find a way to build connections, which will benefit all of them. I imagine it will be a long road OP but well worthwhile.

Therapy, in a safe setting, is very different from "discussing it with dad". I'm just suggesting offering it to her.

OP or even the dad are miles away from being in a place where family therapy is even a remote possibility let alone a reasonable thing to offer. You're very evangelical about it being a safe place, do you not get that not everyone feels the same about these things? Family therapy with my mum could never be a safe place because of what she's like as a person and because of how it would hurt her. It would harm both of us to address this, it wouldn't make things better, it wouldn't be safe, it would be raw and painful and push past boundaries I don't ever want to break. Not everyone will find it safe.

She has to decide whether she wants a closer relationship or not, and so far she’s been very clear that she doesn’t.

Needing help, if indeed she does need help, doesn’t mean it would be helpful for her family to be the ones to provide it. ‘She needs help’ isn’t justification for riding roughshod over her clearly stated wishes, and in fact could easily be counterproductive. Tbh I’m not seeing anything in her behavior that isn’t common for young twenty something’s letting loose in a big city for the first time.

It may not be a long road for OP at all, as the road may have long since ended. That OP wants to reconnect doesn’t mean the daughter has, or will ever have, any desire to. That doesn’t mean the daughter won’t be healing from her experiences - coming to terms with something doesn’t mean being open to reconciliation, and having a relationship with those that harmed you isn’t in any way necessary for healing or being healed.

She may already be getting therapy, for all we know.

That said, therapy isn’t some cure all that benefits everyone, and having therapy isn’t something she needs to demonstrate in order or prove her maturity to people she doesn’t ever have to answer to. Therapy worked for you? Great! Why does that mean it will benefit her?

What they think of her/what she needs isn’t her problem.

Unless OP is willing to take a long hard look at how deeply she let her daughter down in childhood, and really spend some time unpicking this, NC is sadly the only way for her daughter to protect herself and develop her own life. It may turn into v v low contact in time, but nothing in the OPs responses suggests she will do the work on herself that would be needed before her daughter can have a relationship with her that is based on anything but the daughter being some kind of perfect doll dancing around to please mum. So sad.

Interlgnis - Has articulated this better than I could. Ultimately, a young adult with agency has put down boundaries that say she doesn't want contact with OP due to her experiences of childhood. It doesn't mean we can't also have empathy for OP, but the daughter doesn't owe this to her, she might decide never to forgive and mend the relationship, this isn't actually necessary to move on and heal yourself. Sometimes there is no closure. It doesn't mean her family can't be concerned about her, maybe one day she might benefit from therapy if she decides it might be helpful, maybe she already is. Essentially none of this matters because an adult is telling you categorically that they do not wish to hear from you should be the end of it.

I think there's an unstated reason OP wants to make contact with her middle daughter now.

She stated daughter hasn't spoken to her since the day she left home for Uni. She does speak to her siblings and dad though.

She's done well getting through a degree program and at 22, is now going for an advanced degree in her field.

"she is drinking a lot, several week days after uni and on the weekends (out well into the early hours), she smokes weed (he said not like a "stoner" but socially), vapes, has used cocaine, seems to be just dating random men all the time. He also said she seems to be surviving on very little sleep, energy drinks and not enough food"

The only thing I would find worrisome is not eating enough given her history of anorexia, but is the brother a reliable reporter here? Does he think she looks unhealthily thin? There seems to be some catastrophizing going on here to justify an attempt at contact on OP's part. And the near slut shaming that she's dating around, oh come now.

Going NC is no joke and not lightly done. There are reasons and it is really upsetting when there are attempts to contact the person who has gone NC. If you value her stability more than your own wants, leave her be.

Thank goodness someone finally said what I’ve been thinking all along.
Being married to someone who is neurodivergent and having family who are the same, the type of ‘black and white’ responses OP was giving really stood out for me as being from someone possibly on the spectrum as well. They are very matter of fact replies with the emotional nuances missing, which appear to be triggering some wild assumptions from certain responders.
i feel this whole thread has almost immediately gone from someone who has acknowledged a family issue and is asking for help to make amends, to a mob mentality attack.

It sounds like your daughter was forced to grow up before her time because you didn't have the time or energy to meet her needs emotionally. The fact that she arranged lifts with her friends' parents before even speaking to you speaks volumes, to be honest.

Are you autistic yourself?

We are probably all putting our own slant on the situation. I certainly am and would be very concerned about the fact that she had anorexia in the past. Whilst it might be OK for somebody who is not prone to an eating disorder to live on very little food or sleep, it is certainly not advisable for somebody in recovery or recovered. And if OP’s. DD is in the grips of anorexia then she is not in a position to make good judgements. In that case, it will be her siblings and her dad who will have to be there to offer support when she is ready to accept it. But I imagine a letter of apology and unconditional love from OP would do no harm. Anorexia is a brutal illness and she will need great determination and support to recover. I may have missed something in the previous post, but my understanding is that DD went NC but maybe OP can reach out without expecting anything in return. To not reach out when her DD is potentially in crisis, given her history of AN, would be intentional neglect. From my understanding of the situation, previous neglect was unintentional because Mum thought DD was doing fine and incredibly mature for her age. Clearly. alarm bells are ringing now and OP is not ignoring them but coming on here to ask for advice in a very difficult situation.

I suggested family therapy. I have never had family therapy with my parents but I had it with my children when they were little - they are adopted and it was part of their post adoption support. It is nothing like personal therapy, which I have one.

Look, she can say no. I'm only suggesting it as a possible way forward. Everyone else is just slagging off the OP and suggesting nothing.

Okay, and?

She’s said no to contact with her mother. For five years. The ‘way forward’ is for OP to respect the wishes of her adult daughter, not ride roughshod over them in order to make herself feel better. She has no more right to access her daughter than a persistent ex that ‘just wants to make it right, if only she’d let me!’ does. That is harassment, and abusive behavior in itself.

Sometimes you can’t make it better, or get a resolution that suits you. You just have to live with what is.

That's your belief and you are entitled to it. What I don't understand is you trying to shut down other suggestions. You don't get to dictate the comments other people make.

@InterIgnis you are assuming that OP wanted to make contact because she wants to make herself feel better. I am reading it very differently. OP has a reason to believe that her daughter is struggling and has reached out to Mumnet for advice on how best to make contact after an extended period of low or no contact.

Nobody’s life was easy by the sounds of it. And it would seem that she masked heavily, so much so that her parents thought she was fine and mature beyond her years. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but at the time it sounds like OP had her hands full - to have 3 children impacted by a car crash is no small thing.
DD is free to leave and not contact her mum. But that doesn’t mean that mum, who now sees her young adult child struggling cannot reach out and try to make amends. @SMEHJmammy if you can afford it, I would be inclined to get professional help for yourself in how best to do this. Families with ND kids &/or parents need all the help they can get

The DD has made her boundaries clear, and they are based on her feelings, needs and experiences when growing up. Ignoring this and saying that she will come round because she will mature is excusing the OP for what she has done.

The DD does not have to forgive the OP for her actions nor does she have to understand why the OP did what she did.

@LinksLater

DD is free to leave and not contact her mum. But that doesn’t mean that mum, who now sees her young adult child struggling cannot reach out and try to make amends.

As a child who is NC with a parent I think the last thing the parent should be doing is 'reaching out' - just respect that the child doesn't want any contact. Who wants a shitty mum coming in and trying to take over and sort out your life? Nobody, that's who.

I have PTSD thanks to my mother and the very last thing I would want is her being invasive and contacting me. Thankfully she doesn't give a fuck so it's never happened.

I think people suggesting OP gets in touch are seeing the situation as it would be if it were their own children, who they didn't treat badly. Sadly for people whose mother has been abusive the only way we can protect ourselves is NC. It's a strong boundary that we need so please stop suggesting OP should get in touch.

Yes, OP is the one that wants contact - you and she can dress it up as being for the daughter as much as you like, the daughter has made it very clear that isn’t what she wants. She has already exercised her freedom in that regard.

It doesn’t matter how sorry OP is, how tough things were for her, how desperate she is to make amends, or how justified you consider her reasoning, OP is not entitled to have her daughter hear her out, or to be part of her daughter’s life. She isn’t owed understanding or forgiveness.

OP is not in fact free to harass her daughter any more than anyone is.

Welcome to message boards, where ideas are shared, discussed and challenged.

Disagreeing with you is not shutting you down, or denying you the right to make comments.

@richardosmanstrousers and @InterIgnis I’m sorry that you have trauma from childhood.
I and other posters like me only want the best for OP’s DD. OP has been made aware of concerns for her DD and cares enough to ask for advice on what to do. That means something in my book. Her DD is likely suffering with an ED and has maladaptive coping mechanisms. Nobody is suggesting that OP harasses her DD. But some of us think that she is very vulnerable and needs help and dad and siblings may have to step up for her. And mum reaching out with a heartfelt apology seems like a good idea to me - DD is free to reflect on that for as long as she needs and with a bit of luck it may bring her some peace - to know that she is loved.

A swing and miss on that one, I’m afraid. While I have professional experience of issuing cease and desist letters, and of injunctions when someone has refused to take heed of said communication, I have no personal experience of OP or the daughter’s situation.

OP’s daughter, as an adult with agency, has the right to decide for herself what is best for her, regardless of whether you and/or OP agree with her. When someone has communicated ‘no’ to you, it’s on you to respect that even if it isn’t what you want or think is best.

If OP really was open to change, she would recognize the lack of accountability in her posts. Instead she's been quite dismissive.

Instead, she's downplaying neglecting her daughter's needs and parentifying her. That the home was so scattered that a 7 year old had to remind her parents about meds and basically raise herself and that she did so having anorexia and ADHD, I give daughter kudos.

"if that isn't a childhood what is?"

I'm getting whiffs of the first few lines from something known as the narcissist's prayer:

That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.

You are very fortunate not to have experienced what some of us have from our mothers.

You are absolutely wrong with the* And mum reaching out with a heartfelt apology seems like a good idea to me - DD is free to reflect on that for as long as she needs and with a bit of luck it may bring her some peace* comment.

It's fucking trauma that OPDD needs to be protected from. She DOES NOT WANT contact. That means NO contact.

One of the ways I deal with past trauma isn not to continue to be re traumatised. This is done by having absolutely no contact. If I received a 'heartfelt apology' it would send me spiralling and the only 'reflecting' I would be doing would be the horrific emotional flashbacks.

Oh, and OP isn't going to be offering heartfelt apologies when she can't even identify her errors.

Excuse me but you are the one telling me my suggestions are not valid. You are the one trying to police this thread, telling us we are wrong and that you have all the answers. I am making the point that I, and others, are allowed to post what we want too.