British or English

[Dellspoem]

Currently having a conversation/ debate with a friend. Are you British or English? Do you consider one a nationality and one an ethnicity?

My Asian family members describe themselves as British Asian. Saying 'I'm English' is synonymous with something else, mainly because of the connotations with the English flag and nationalism.

They are both geographic locations, so technically this shouldnt be that different. And you don't get the same with Scottish or Welsh.

What are your thoughts?

A child born to British parents abroad will be British but not English.

You are mixing up nationality and ethnicity.

Most expats would disagree. People might say they were British/brits or “from UK” but I’m not sure “English” is used in that way. Outside of uk the word “English” usually refers to the language.

British and a Londoner :)

Because I have Italian and French roots.

I agree, it seems really strange that we seem to be the only country where saying you think of yourself as English first denotes you to be racist/xenophonic. Even the USA with their MAGA slogans and flags displayed everywhere, printed and actual (even outside their homes) that’s kind of been accepted with a condescending eye roll, like, that’s them. Displaying the English flag is only partially acceptable during a sporting event, otherwise it’s the British flag that is more acceptable generally.

it seems to be mainly related to football hooliganism and national front type groups - but there are racist, badly behave arseholes in every country. But displaying any other national flag isn’t given any thought really, which is sad. And just raising this issue seems to mark ppl out as potentially racist for being bothered about it in the first place.

Also to add - it was the BRITISH empire, not the English one, so why ‘English’ is being linked to colonialism and ‘British’ is seen as the less offensive label I have no idea.

From experience, expats from all over the world, across the world generally go by nationality abroad rather than ethnic group considering there are thousands and thousands of ethnicities and saying nationality is simply much easier.

Ancestors all English but I would only ever describe myself as British. Use of the term English has been hijacked by the far right, for me. Plus I'm proud to be part of a union of nations.

Asking whether you are Scottish or British is a political/toxic question up here and has been for a decade after the referendum on independence.

What you’ve said is interesting and I agree.

May I ask, i don’t know which country you are in, but if you are living in England, why would you see yourself as British - if you were living in Scotland or Wales would you still see yourself as British do you think, or Scottish/Welsh? It is an interesting one.

This sounds more complicated than it is but my friend’s FIL was born in Wales to a Welsh father and English mother and sees himself as Welsh but his children as half-Welsh (married an English woman), but friend’s DH was born in England to an English mother and (FIL)Welsh father … so opposite but parallel set up to his dad, but for some reason is not just English…? Nor is it acceptable to point out by these rules, FIL is half-English. I guess from his POV his heritage is important to him and he wants to see it reflected in his kids, but seems to deny his equal English heritage on his mum’s side and would like to claim he’s 100% Welsh.

Would you say this is similar to a German referring to themselves as ‘European’ but not German? That would be seen as quite odd, but ‘British’ isn’t.

Obviously Europe is a lot bigger than GB but still a collection of nations mostly sharing one land mass

@Notsosure1 I'm originally English and living in Wales, and have come to think of myself as more British since moving.

I'm a white man born in England, and when a family member tried to trace the family tree they found nobody going back four or five generations who wasn't English. I used to think of myself as primarily English, but I'm now living in another part of the UK, married to someone who certainly isn't English, and with children who don't consider themselves primarily English either.

I now think of myself as primarily British, because it's an identity that is ongoing, and it's a big tent that I can share with my nearest and dearest rather than a smaller one they're outside.

British. A large part of my heritage is Irish and French, so I don't feel I could claim English as such as thats more about where you originate from with not being a citizenship of its own, but am British as a nationality.

English & should I do a DNA test & find there's all manner of stuff in there I'd still be English.

Regardless of where your parents etc were born, if you were born/raised here then you're English as far as I'm concerned. In that situation you have extra cultural richness that I don't & get an extra label which is usually pre-faced with 'British' but I think that's down to phonetics? Ie, 'British-Pakistani' rolls off the tongue better than 'English-Pakistani' but I'd still expect you to feel English iyswim.

Anyway, I felt what Braverman said was a bit race-baity & what Sunak said was just factual.

Though, oddly, if I'm referring to myself online (global audience) I'd say I'm a 'Brit' & narrow down to English from there & finally to 'Midlands'. But my kids were born & raised in Cornwall (where I do have ancestry from) which is a whole other can of worms lol.

Yes but you’re talking about very small amounts of migration, most of it from within the British isles and even that is relatively recent. We certainly haven’t ‘always been a country of immigrants’ in any significant way, like the USA.

Tbh though that’s a tangential point. Nigeria is an ethnically diverse country. If two English people move to Nigeria and have a baby, is the baby Nigerian? Well, possibly yes in terms of its passport, no in terms of ethnicity, heritage and culture, though it will probably be more Nigerian than its parents. We don’t have to pretend these things are inconsequential.

British, because I am part Welsh, Scottish and English!

I'm English.

Scottish, I wouldn't class myself as British as was born in Scotland to Scottish parents. Family members are a mix of French, Irish, Polish, US and Welsh. This may be the reason I don't identify as British with my family being predominantly European I feel more European.

Just fyi there is no "European" ethnicity people are mentioning.
Europe has many, many, many ethnicities.
Ethnic groups from UK are automatic European people, since UK is in Europe

I’m Scottish. So Scottish first, British second.

I attend a lot of conference and artsy type events through work (in Scotland). It’s common for people to give a short biography at these events and in my experience, most ethnic minority Scottish born presenters describe themselves as Scottish-Asian, Scottish-Jamaican, Scottish-Polish, etc. NOT British-Asian. This was very evident this week when attending a conference featuring a mixture of self-described Black-British presenters who’d travelled up from London for the event versus Black-Scottish (born or raised in Scotland) presenters.
Again, in my experience, majority of “indigenous” Scottish speakers at such event also do not describe themselves as British.

So to me, someone describing themselves as “British-Asian” etc would be a marker of Englishness. Caveat is that I’m IN Scotland listening to people also IN Scotland self-describe. For funding purposes, they may want to emphasise their heritage and links to this country. It would be interesting to how the same people self-describe if presenting to events elsewhere in the UK.

What about a child born to English parents abroad?

There is no such ethnicity as “Nigerian” though.

”Nigeria” is a colonial invention.

I'd say British. All grandparents and great grandparents as far as I know born in England.

Definitely some bad connotations with the idea of being English rather than British due to racists.

Depends. When I was in Oz most of the English immigrants would refer to themselves as “English” in addition to “British”.

This isn’t true. At least not where I have lived.

In France “Je suis anglaise” was far more natural and said than “Je suis Britannique”.

Ditto in Oz and North America.

In fact I found overseas people were continuously mixing up “Britain” and “England”.

That’s not my experience