British or English

[Dellspoem]

Currently having a conversation/ debate with a friend. Are you British or English? Do you consider one a nationality and one an ethnicity?

My Asian family members describe themselves as British Asian. Saying 'I'm English' is synonymous with something else, mainly because of the connotations with the English flag and nationalism.

They are both geographic locations, so technically this shouldnt be that different. And you don't get the same with Scottish or Welsh.

What are your thoughts?

Well our experience’s differ living overseas so probably incorrect to say “that’s how it is”.

But my point is most people see him as English.

See various profiles on him:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RudyardKipling

https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historicfigures/kiplingrudyard.shtml

1905 ©Kipling was an English writer and winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature. He is best known for his poems and stories set in India during the period of British imperial rule.

.And British - yes. But also “English”.

Similarly Boris Johnson is seen as English by many despite not being born in England.

I am talking about ethnicity not nationality.

So your point that it’s rare for somebody born overseas to English parents to be seen as “English” and that my acquaintance is using his “own definition of words” is really you projecting your stance.

I am not saying there is a right or wrong way but your way (where you seem to think “English” is only a language) is definitely less common than you think it is.

I think because of the way it has been hijacked.

I know if I am walking through a neighbourhood with loads of English flags on show outside of houses - and it’s not a football event on, it’s probably not somewhere I feel safe being. Sadly.

I didn’t say I saw English as only a language though did I?

If a child is born to two Scottish parents abroad, are they not Scottish?

I think it also depends on where one is and languages spoken. We all went generally by nationalities because otherwise we would all spend waaay too much time googling😂 (not English speaking country). It was incredibly multicultural so we had x people from 1 country and they were of 2+ ethnic mix groups for example.

And then add ethnolinguistics into this and it's a proper mixed soup.

Loved it!

No British

I can't understand why people care what others refer to themselves as. I was born in England to English parents but I have no ties at all to England, calling myself English would feel as weird as calling myself Scottish or Irish. I'm Welsh, people can feel however they want to about that but I don't care.

No, they are both Scottish and British. Just like I am Finnish even though I was born in England, because my mother is Finnish.

So why ask? You have drawn up your own “rules”. So long as you are aware that they differ from other people’s what does it matter?

What are the "rules" on ethnicity then?

I’m sorry I don’t understand your question.

They are the rules that everyone, except apparently you, follow.

Nope

What are the rules that you think govern all this? What are you basing your belief on that a child born to English parents isn't English just because of the location they were born in?

Have not yet read rest of thread but surely if you are both Irish neither of you would ever want to identify as British?

It’s a fairly common situation. We’re a nation of travellers and historically colonists so as a result generations of British people have been born far from “Home”. I don’t know any children born outside the UK who call themselves “English”. Whoever posted that link to Kipling up thread, if they’d actually read it, it said his parents described themselves as Anglo-Indian.

If someone were to ask me my nationality I would say Scottish. For form-filling purposes I'm British or German, or both.

Displaying a flag is one thing, altho I hate how it’s negative for everyone - including the English.

England seems to be the only country in the world whose citizens include many who are ashamed to be referred to by their country’s name. They are either ashamed or fear they will be labelled racist so choose to follow the British suit. Colonialism wasn’t exclusively English (British). It was a policy of many countries throughout the world. It was Britain who worked hard to abolish slavery, and yet we carry this burden of guilt going back to acts that were committed up to centuries ago. There seems to have been a certain level of scapegoating ‘England’ in global and veritably national media coverage so it’s as if it was the only country to treat other people badly.

Not excusing those ppl but it’s like blaming modern Italians for the Roman Empire - does that ever happen?! Do Italians feel shamed about their history? - they were fascist in more recent history! Generally no, nor should they - it wasn’t THEM.

We both identify as British-Irish.

Reading back, I think I was unclear.

I say I'm British - I was born and mostly bred in England but have a Scottish Nanna and spent a lot of time living in Edinburgh as I grew up and I also have Irish and Welsh grandparents.

Ethnicity and ethnic identity are such an interesting thing. It can also change over life (though some strongly argue it cannot). So someone born as X, but groeing up amongst Y and fully adopting the culture, language, tradition, values can actually identify as Y, more usually X-Y or Y-X. You inherit it, but can also adopt new one.
It even showed in census.

Immigrants can have bit of an identity crisis after a while living somewhere ime. Many of us feel like both original group and new group, but at the same time neither, if that makes sense. My immigrant friends and I had many laughs over drinks about how we are not enough X for X people, but also now not enough Y for Y people (usually after holidays hearing "god, you are so British" teases).

That doesn't necessarily follow.
My father was born in Ireland and always proudly declared that he was born under the British flag.
When I was quite young i imagined his mother being caught short and having to give birth out in a field somewhere under a flagpole.

Dad is English, mum is Welsh. Born in Wales. Identify as Welsh or British depending on the context.

English