To suspect the "deal" between the US and Russia Greenland for Ukraine?

[FancyRedRobin]

The way things are shaping up I'm beginning to think the USAs negotiations with Putin were for USA to stand aside and let Putin have part of Ukraine and for Russia to support the US to take Greenland.

considering how much people are happy to use American's when it suits them ? then why all the take and then complain when we ask for x in return ? as proven with out america to begin with the world would be wholy different.

besides you all know one way or another you all need America weather you want to admit it or not

otherwise good luck against the other imperial giants

The USA has in the past been an excellent ally. Mostly because it shared the same ideals around freedom, democracy and justice as the rest of the free world. Right now that looks like it’s changing. It will be interesting to see what the world looks like in three years time.

see that i can respect, it just seems a piss take that people are happy to use us as an ally whenever they have needed but when we call in those favours or previous assistance then its omg, yes trump could be better about it, but in principle we have helped in may ways across the years

in summary all part and parcel of democracy,

In what way? If it was replaced with a country with integrity? Or f it just didn't exist?

You really think too much of yourself, playing to the stereotype well

Agreed

It's incredible they don't understand this. Arrogance personified

As an example Without the American Revolution, the British Empire might have remained the dominant global power for much longer, shaping the modern world in its own image. European empires would have had less resistance to their colonial ambitions, potentially delaying independence movements across Africa, Asia, and Latin America.

The absence of American military and economic power in the 20th century would have left Europe more vulnerable in both World Wars, possibly leading to a German-dominated continent or a prolonged Soviet expansion. The Cold War, if it happened at all, would have played out very differently, with no superpower to counterbalance the USSR.

so in short your welcome

Again. Arrogance personified

You're

I think the points made here about Europe's over-reliance on the USA for military support are valid. Europe should be less complacent and more self-sufficient.

The USA is very powerful in its own right and is flexing that power, it may be a shock to Europeans to be variously insulted and left to our own devices by USA but there's not much more than sentiment and tradition in its defence of Europe now, it doesn't owe us indefinite protection.

If EU / UK / AUS / Canada et al want to be secure we have to change our alliances somewhat, change our spending priorities. I don't think that should be very controversial. We'll need to keep trading with USA and China and it's to be hoped environmental alliances can still be made, if only in self-interest for many regions of the world.

Europeans and English-speaking nations have long viewed USA as a benign ally and want Trump to be an aberration but there's no reason to think that. Trump himself is bizarre but organised interests have gathered behind him and they are not benign or Europe-facing, or indeed elected, but seem popular with the American people. So I hope we Europeans will begin to change, regroup and collaborate - there's no telling what America will look like in 10 or 20 years.

true but whats wrong with being correct when we are correct about that ?

@NorthernBogbean
very much apricated for your analysis

I think the US has frequently called in favours from the British and that we have in turn fully supported them. But the current administration seems very unstable and quite frankly dangerous especially in the way they echo disinformation from Russia. Loyalty to the US is not the same as Loyalty to Trump.

Absolutely.

But I do firmly believe that, if we want the US to revert to a more typical and less confrontational relationship, then we very much need to use our wallets to try and influence that.

If the US remains a democracy (and that is a big "if") then a worsening US economy greatly improves our chances of American voters stepping in.

the price good people pay for indifference to political affairs is to be ruled by evil rulers - Plato

I can, weirdly. Ask for bread in Russian and rice in Mandarin. Not the other way around. Phonetically sort of, hlep and mefan.

I'll be fine under the New World Order. whichever way the wind blows.

This is bollocks, sorry total bollocks. The USA joined ww2 after Pearl Harbour. It did not join to be the saviour of Europe. It conveniently ignored everything until it realised its inaction was an almighty fuck up which brought the war to their own doorstep. It only joined once it was abundantly clear it needed to for its own interests. Before then it couldn’t give a shit.

so don’t talk about calling in favours because I don’t think we owe you any. If any countries joined a war/provided assistance in a war which wasn’t of their making it was all the countries who fought in Afghanistan after 9/11.

same goes for 2003 and the Iraq war….Bush started that with his incorrect belief that there were hidden WMD. He dragged the U.K. into that. The intelligence was wrong and in many people’s view was an illegal war. Started by a US president who was happy to believe it. Again a cynical person could say follow the money. Was the USA happy to find an excuse to invade a country with significant valuable natural resources for no good reason? But the U.K. were happy to be an ally and join in.

so no the USA hasn’t helped across the years. Quite the opposite. The USA has done what suits it and looks after itself and in more recent post ww2 times other countries have helped the USA. If anyone is owed a favour it’s the uk, Australia, Poland, Netherlands and ironically Denmark. And look how the USA are repaying Denmark.

and here we go again with the USA wanting to invade and take over other countries for no reason. The USA are very much the global problem.

Yes, and that’s why the USA now has Trump. I pity the decent people of America but I pity the rest of the world more. We are all being affected by this crazy dictator with world domination plans.

I even think that large portions of Trump's voters are deserving of a degree of pity.

Even before Trump, there was no major political party in the developed world that peddled as much disinformation as the Republican Party, no doubt due to the obscene degree of "corporate sponsorship" that is all but required to run for office in the US.

While Democrats are also far from immune, the Republican embrace of climate denialism and other anti-factual positions has been markedly more pronounced. Mike Pence, for example, continued to deny the harms of smoking tobacco until the early 2000s - decades after the risk became undeniable as a matter-of-fact.

Obviously, Fox News is (and long has been) just another arm of the propaganda machine and pumps out disinformation to advance the interests of the mega-rich on a daily basis. It is by far the most popular news networks in the country.

Heck, Republicans themselves came to loathe the decades spent brainwashing their supporters when Trump came along and it became quite clear that large sections of their voterbase now had no ability to discren truth from lie, no matter how plain and obvious. They tried to stand up to him but the brainwashing has proven too profound (and had been accelerated by social media).

Working class and middle classes Americans have not and will not benefit from Trump's politics. They have been gaslit into thinking otherwise. I'm not going to shed any tears for them but many are, absolutely, deserving of some pity.

Yes, I suppose the brain washing of the general USA public is similar to people living in North Korea who are repeatedly told their way is the correct way, other countries are evil, they’re only doing xyz to protect themselves. Though the difference is that Americans do have access to non American media so should be able to find other viewpoints. Guess that doesn’t always make up for the incessant brain washing though.

And we have American posters on here clearly demonstrating that they think what the USA is doing is right. Because that’s what they are repeatedly told. And they seemingly have limited critical appraisal ability.

Or just don’t give a shit as long as they/America come out on top. Will happily trample over other countries/invade them to get what they want. but can’t see that actually by talking about stuff like invading Greenland and by providing resources for Israel to ethnically cleanse Gaza that the USA are as bad as countries like Iraq. Invading another country just to take their assets.

They don't speak for me. I've actually found your responses very diplomatic and interesting, I've learned a lot and can see where America is coming from and agree with a lot that Trump stands for, I'm a Christian but you're not allowed to talk about that here either. However, Trump and Vances God complex is very grating on most Europeans. we would never treat a guest in our country the way they bullied and humiliated Zelensky, we don't understand the worship and bootlicking Trump expects and his arrogance just makes people switch off. Is this a just a culture difference?

This!
The way the US is forgetting what happened after 9/11 and the way they needed our support then is both disgusting and infuriating.

America was terrified back then, truly terrified that something so awful was happening in their country & that they were actually vulnerable to attack.

Americans should remember that fear. That is what Ukrainians are facing every day.

America needs to remember that the only time NATO's Article 5, the collective defense provision, has been invoked was following the 9/11/2001 attack against the US. In response, the NATO countries joined the US in its war against the Taliban and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.

My take on the discussion after RTFT.

@LovingHare is a younger person, possibly a recent/current politics student. Has some interesting ideas, not all of which are wrong, which they think is fact, and a 'just suck it up as American might is right' tone. Provocative ideas, but lacking in critical analysis by not addressing the issues from a 360 degree standpoint, hence tendency to think that Trump's actions are just how politics work.

@OneLemonDog has a greater depth of understanding of the situation and a more mature and nuanced approach. Comments are reasoned. Found that trying to debate with @LovingHare is like debating with a chicken.

@CerealPosterHere has joined the debate to remind Americans and us, of recent history, including when Nato members came to America's assistance after 9/11. Something that Trump has erased from his own memory.

One of the things I have found is that anti-abortionists and the religious Right, are still willing to agree with Trump on anything. I have heard Ukraine aid described as 'wasting American $' and I had to point out that the money was mostly spent in the US, buying US military equipment.

Will things change when on-off tariffs and DOGE actions affect 401K valuations and increase the CoL of those who voted for him?

I recently heard an economic adviser from Allianz refer to Trump deal making as starting with the nuclear option in the expectation of frightening the other party into immediate concessions. I hope the governments of Denmark, Canada and Panama don't fall for his tactics and stand up to American expansionism ... disguised as a security need.

He wants to start WW3 so as to make a profit from it I think.