Constantly disruptive child in my daughter's class

[waitingforsainos]

DD is Y6 and this other child seems to be causing so much trouble in class every day, shouting at the teacher, slamming doors, flicking light switches on and off, randomly screaming in the middle of a lesson when they don't want to do the work, mouthing off if other kids get to do something different because they've behaved well. DD says it's every lesson.

On the whatsapp group, the child's mum has said it's not their fault, they've got an ehcp for semh (think that's mental health?) and has laughed at the teacher when she's been asked to go inside to talk at the end of the day.

From the parent chat, it sounds like the child has had a few suspensions but doesn't seem to have made any difference.

AIBU to expect more from school? What would happen in your child's school if someone behaved like that?

@NC28 a mum comes home, sticks the kids in front of inappropriate videos so she can catch up on soaps. A mum comes home and sticks the kids infront of inappropriate videos (with carrot sticks and houmous) so she can get back on her laptop and finish working maybe by 7pm. You tell me the difference in terms of impact on the child.

Why should children be punished for having an unmet learning disability?

Because you can't behave like that?

Why are you assuming they all have a LD?

Exactly this. Firm boundaries and praise and positive reinforcement make my PDA child's behaviour worse not better. I'm pretty sure I'm implementing those parenting startegies correctly because they work fine for my other two NT DC. Reward charts send my PDA kid into a downward spiral. I learnt the hard way that she needs a very different approach to remain calm. It is a disability that she has, not "bad behaviour".

The mentality from some people around it is how depression was viewed a few decades ago. Telling people with depression to get over it, everyone gets sad sometimes, "if you're fine some of the time why can't you just always be fine", cheer up etc. No amount of trying to cheer someone up can make depression go away, no amount of firm parenting can help a ND child "behave".

I had a perfect example of the sort of parenting that causes this lack of respect for school boundaries last night. As all the kids were coming out of school one of the disruptive boys in year 4/5 picked up a big branch and started waving it around, he then started snapping it in to smaller pieces and throwing them full force, he hit a parent in the leg and narrowly missed a few kids, it would have really hurt a child if any of the pieces had hit them. What did the mother do? She smiled and shook her head saying "he's a bit wild tonight!" Made absolutely NO attempt to stop him or reprimand him for the behaviour

I’d probably move schools in this scenario. Is that a possibility?

Agree completely.

These kids won’t be interested in manual or factory work. It won’t be exciting or easy enough for them, or they’ll be too anxious at having to work for 8 hours and turning up on time. Expectations have changed. I expect most will be on UC and PIP.

@HeyDrake

What are you talking about?

Why do they need to be stuck in front of an inappropriate video? Imagine this - could they maybe do their homework while Mum finishes their work? Or play with their siblings? Or watch something that is a bit more in line with their age? Or a bit of all three?

Even if the parent is working til 7pm, I’d expect they’d check in with their kid, see how their homework/play is going, make time to talk to them about their day when work is finished and they’re getting ready for bed. Maybe using the demonstration of working til 7pm to show that we work hard for what we have, that we need to do things we don’t want to do sometimes.

So yes, there’s a huge difference between sitting on your arse watching soaps with no interest in your child.

In state schools currently there are no other options. Children have to be housed in classes with other pupils who are violent and disruptive. My child’s (state school) head said that people mistakenly thought his job involved educational. It doesn’t these days. He is simply trying to get to the end of each day with all pupil’s physical safety protected.

Without the political will to change things this will go on being the case.

That is really shocking for mainstream primaries. I have little experience of mainstream primary but that is terrible if it is the case.

In my opinion there are far too many non SEN children being diagnosed with SEN because they simply haven't been taught right from wrong and know that there is no actual consequences to their behaviour. I have two friends who are TA's in secondary schools and they say it's quite commonplace that pupils will say things like "you can't do anything to me because I've got ASD/ADHD" and they laugh about it while going around terrorising classes.

Bloody awful isn’t it. On both ends. Children are being failed on both sides. Those with additional needs who deserve the right care but instead are shoe horned into the school system that just makes them feel worse. Then the children who have to witness and deal with the dysregulated children.
I think more and more people will home school, I know I would if my children were still in large state schools.
Here they are closing all the small schools where they have the time and space to deal with additional needs or just individual needs. They will shove them into the bigger schools and no one will thrive.
It’s a broken system.

It wasn’t necessarily about being strict.

I was at school in the 80s and 90s. There were many differences that meant I, an autistic child, could cope.

We had very clear boundaries (very often not the case now).
The classroom was quiet and formal (definitely not the case now!).
Information on the walls was minimal and more muted in colour. (Classrooms, particularly primary, are a complete sensory overload now).
I was lucky enough to miss the introduction of SATs and the pressure that goes with them. All my dc had a huge amount of pressure on the from yr 5 onwards to perform well.
We had more time outside.
We didn’t have more severely disabled children in school as there was more suitable provision for them in the form of special schools.
We didn’t have a huge mental health crisis going on.
If a pupil seriously misbehaved they were expelled. Many schools can no longer do that.
Schools had more ways to deal with violence, now hands are very often tied, and there aren’t as many specialist referral centres to deal with this.
We had more time outside, or doing nature things, outside and in. My youngest’s primary had a forest school section, but children (in a tiny school) only went in there once a month.

There are so many more comparisons to be made, but just picking one of them - the sensory overload that is a primary classroom - is enough to go some way to explain why more and more children can’t cope. This escalates through school.

SN children are the canaries in the coal mine. They are falling. Ignore this at your peril.

@EarsUpTailUp I agree with this. I see a lot of similarities between me and my DD, but I was fine at my 90s primary school and she isn't. I struggled more at a large secondary but with a lot of school based anxiety rather than it being obvious outwardly. I regularly had panic attacks on a Sunday night before school but I had to hide it from my parents because they didn't understand. I don't want that for my DD.

Possibly a combination of :

• Poor parenting
• Increases in children with Sen in mainstream schools due to reduced government funding
• Schools not allowed to discipline badly behaved children
• Poor parenting that then results in the parents looking for a reason why, and SEN is sometimes seen as an answer. Sometimes it will be but it's definitely not always the answer

It's not really that easy to get a diagnosis. I have been through the process with two children, meetings, evidence from many places, extensive questioning. And then all of it again to get EHCPs and help - luckily my 7 year old is now in a SEN provision and my 11 year old will be starting a SEN provision for secondary but that's only after a huge amount of self harm and involvement from crisis teams.

However I do agree some parents don't try hard enough - my youngest was accused of being a bully to a particular child and I had weeks of talking to him, taking away his tech time, monitoring everything to reduce and influence of violence all to finally realise that the other child was also SEN and was intentionally screaming in his face and touching him and finding it funny but his mum said there was nothing she could do because it was a stim and she doesn't understand, massively frustrating knowing she was happy to see my child punished but unwilling to even attempt to stop hers.

Another would scream and swear and kick at random on the playground and mum would just say he has ADHD nothing I can do

@NC28 you're talking about a neurotypical child. My daughter could not do homework without support, she could not be left to her own devices, she would not 'play nicely'. The reason parents of ND children use screens are they are at the end of their tether and nothing else works. It's very chicken and egg. And I imagine that's why all classes and types of parents use screens.
I'm not shifting the blame here. But I'm saying the ideas being spouted on here about disruptive children being working class or the children of dysfunctional families on the dole is not the reality. How many mums on MN claim to work full time in hectic jobs where they are non stop 24/7 and if that is the case, how are they managing kids with SEN at home with no screens and adapting to their needs and promoting outdoor play and installing a love of learning and all the other stuff we know reduces challenging behaviour.
They are not. And so both kids of laptop mums on constant TEAMs calls and kids of fag ash Lil are going into school dysregulated and kicking the shit out of the TA.

But for many, many children who are behaving like that it’s because they are in a situation where they don’t have any other option but to behave like that.

They have no support.

SN is rising in behavioural ways. If it was rising in another way, maybe children having seizures which disrupted classes, no one would be putting the onus on those children or their parents to stop this behaviour. (Having been on MN for years I’m actually not sure about this any more!)

The majority of children acting up in class have unmet needs.

I understand the frustration but this child is also having a difficult time.
We all have to share the world with each other. Its unfortunate but has been happening since day dot.

I remember children in my class at school who were constantly disruptive.

My mam used to remind me that they didnt have a very nice life amd were trying to communicate that..and to carry on trying my best even if they were distracting.

I work closely with schools now and feel for children and parents on both sides.

Hopefully this child , and all the others, will get the support they need.

@Coco1789 there's no need to be rude.

I have a 10 year old autistic child. He has an ehcp and a full time 1:1. He's in a mainstream school he has sensory breaks and they do social stories, structured activities like lego therapy and commander joe and it all helps him manage and limits impact on the class.

I also use to work in social services supporting children with mh/behavioural issues, reduced time table and alternative provisions were absolutely things that would and are still being done. At the end of the day if the child isn't learning and it's impacting on the rest of the classes ability to learn then further steps need to be considered. The child is already missing school due to exclusions so their educational needs are not being met.

I don't know if you are speaking from your own experience as a parent or provider but the school or local authority you are referring to is failing if these types of issues are not being addressed.

@Coco1789 just remembered the last part of your message. A reduced time table would mean the child might just do mornings or 2/3 days a week. They might do 10-2. Depending on the reason for a reduced time table and the impact they are aiming to achieve. When they are in school they are educated as normal. The rest of the time they would be at home so would be parents responsibility. Work may be sent home or possibly not. The idea is some education is being achieved which is better than none. In some situations of relationship has completely broken down with school, education may take place in a alternative provisions or the local authority pay for a tutor to work 1:1 with a child usually in a library or children's centre or similar setting. The role I work in now supports organising provision for tutors. It's pretty common.

And what if the parents don’t support this? What if both parents work?

You misunderstand me. You imply schools aren’t doing enough. Yes it’s great when a child gets 1:1 provision but it’s so vanishingly rare and there is no money at the moment. It’s not the schools fault.